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Regional  Oral  History  Office 
The  Bancroft  Library 


University  of  California 
Berkeley,  California 


Edward  Cans 
BERLIN  BANKER  TO  CALIFORNIA  NUMISMATIST,  1887-1987 


With  an  Introduction  by 
Wolfgang  J.  Heimpel 


An  Interview  Conducted  by 
Ora  Huth 
1983-1987 


Copyright   (c)  1987  by  The  Regents  of  the  University  of  California 


All  uses  of  this  manuscript  are  covered  by  a  legal 
agreement  between  the  University  of  California  and 
Edward  Cans  dated  March  24,  1986.  The  manuscript  is 
thereby  made  available  for  research  purposes.  All 
literary  rights  in  the  manuscript,  including  the  right 
to  publish,  are  reserved  to  The  Bancroft  Library  of  the 
University  of  California,  Berkeley.  No  part  of  the 
manuscript  may  be  quoted  for  publication  without  the 
written  permission  of  the  Director  of  The  Bancroft 
Library  of  the  University  of  California,  Berkeley. 

Request  for  permission  to  quote  for  publication 
should  be  addressed  to  the  Regional  Oral  History  Office, 
486  Library,  University  of  California,  Berkeley  94720, 
and  should  include  identification  of  the  specific 
passages  to  be  quoted,  anticipated  use  of  the  passages, 
and  identification  of  the  user.   The  legal  agreement 
with  Edward  Cans  requires  that  he  be  notified  of  the 
request  and  allowed  thirty  days  in  which  to  respond. 

It  is  recommended  that  this  oral  history  be  cited 
as  follows: 

Edward  Cans,  "Berlin  Banker  to  California 
Numismatist,  1887-1987,"  an  oral  history 
conducted  1983-1987  by  Ora  Huth,  Regional 
Oral  History  Office,  The  Bancroft  Library, 
University  of  California,  Berkeley,  1987. 


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EDWARD  CANS 
March  1982 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS  —  Edward  Cans 

PREFACE   by   Natasha  Borovsky 

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT 

INTRODUCTION  by  Wolfgang  J.   Helmpel 

INTERVIEW  HISTORY 

v 

BIOGRAPHICAL   SKETCH 

X  X 

I      EARLY  CULTURAL   AND  BUSINESS  LIFE    IN  HAMBURG :      1887  TO  1 909                  1 

The  Early   Years  1 

Schooling  and  Future  Prospects  2 

Hamburg  and    Its  Business  Classifications  3 

Early  Enthusiasm  for  Chemistry  4 

Hamburg  Cultural    and  Business  Life  Compared  4 

Reflections  on  Musical    Interests*    1902  5 

An  Amusing  Event  for  Dr.    Niemeyer  6 

Singing  with   the  Euthymia  Club  6 

Cultivating  a  Love  for  Bach  7 

More  on  Music  at  Dr.   NIemeyer's  7 

Activities  at  Hamburg  Sports  Clubs  8 

Apprenticeship   in  a  Hamburg  Export  House*    1902  8 

More  on  Musical    Activities  and  Friends  9 

Advancement   In  the  Export  Business  at  Age  17,    1904  to  1909               10 

Impact  of   Hamburg  Expectations  on  Private  Life  11 

II      LIFE    IN  BERLIN  AS  REMISSER,    HUSBAND,    ARMY  RESERVIST,    AND  BANKER: 

1909  TO  1925  13 

Move  to  Berl  In    In  1909  13 

Becoming  a  Foreign  Bank  Representative  13 

Transition  to  a  Berlin  Lifestyle  14 

Teletype  Connection  Expands  Business  15 

Edward  Gans,    Registered  Banker   In  1910  15 

Trading   In  Foreign  Securities  Only,    1910  to  1914  16 
Meeting  First  Wife,    Paula,    In  1912:     the  Real    Story  to  Come 

Later  17 

Military  Reserve  Service  During  World  War    I:      1914  to  1918  17 

Aiding  Germany's  War  Loan  Efforts  18 

Service  with  the  Blumensteln  Firm   In  Berlin,    1918  19 

Becoming  a  Real    Banker:     The  Kolonlal bank,    1918  to  1925  20 

Austrian  Connection  and  the  Deutsche  Landerbank  21 

Acquiring  Fine  Banking  Property  22 

New  Location  and  Leadership,    1921  22 

Takeover   by    I.    G.    Far ben  I ndustr le,    1925  23 


Hitler  on  the  Horizon:     Exclusion  from    I.   G.    Farben Industrie  23 

III     TWO  MARRIAGES:     LIFESTYLE  CHANGES  AND  ANTIQUITY  ART  COLLECTING, 

1912  TO  1926  25 

Meeting  Paula  Mul ler   In  1912  25 

Love  for  Art   In  the  Hamburg  Years  26 

Changing  Lifestyle  and  Trip  to  Paris  26 
Wartime  Changes,    1914 
The  Antiquity  Business   In  Berlin 

Limited  Military  Service  and  Marriage,    1914-1918  29 

At  War's  End:     Entering  Banking  and  Modern  Art  Collecting  30 

The  Art  Object  Collection  31 

Reflections  on  Col lecting  Qua  I Ity  Art  Objects  32 
The  Lederer  Connection  Leads  to  Significant  Collecting 

Much  Later,    In  1940,    In  America:     Confirmation  of  Quality  33 

The  Boser  Buben  Ball:     Paula's  Sudden   Fatal    Illness  34 

Paula's  Special    Philosophy  Remembered  34 
Music,   An  Unusual    Friendship  with  Asya   In  1926,   and  Marriage 

in  1930  36 

IV     VALUED  BERLIN  FRIENDSHIPS,    AND  A  PREVIEW  OF  THE  STORY  TO  COME: 

1926  TO  1928  37 

Meaningful    Friendships  37 

Die  dref    Schwaben  38 

Dr.    Ferdinand  Malnzer:     A  Renaissance  Man  39 

Chamber  Music  at  the  House  of   Malnzer  39 

Malnzer's  Clinic,   the  Nazis,   and  His  Later  Years  40 

More  on  Dr.    Lederer  and  Coin  Collecting  41 

Friendship  with  Clergyman  Frederich  Erxleben  42 

Museum  Director,    Professor  Robert  Zahn  42 

Another  Close  Friend,    Kurt  Kruger  44 

Violin  Maker,    Otto  Mockel  45 

Importance  of   Friendships  45 

Looking  Ahead  to  Future   Interviews  46 

A  Look  at  the  Story  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  47 

Some  Thoughts  on  This  History  and  Life's  Miracles  49 

V      ENTRY    INTO  NUMISMATICS,    PARTIAL  LIQUIDATION  OF  ART  TREASURES,    AND 

STORIES  ABOUT  RAREST  OBJECTS:      1926  TO  1928  5 1 
Moving  From  Classical    Art  Collecting  to  Numismatics:     Dr. 

Lederer1 s   Influence  51 

Auction  of  Antiquities  Objects  Collection   In  1928  52 
Soaring  Values  of   Rare  Gold  Objects:     Discovering  the  Useful Iness 

of  One  Piece  52 

Other  Unusual    Pieces   In  the  Gold  Jewelry  Collection  53 

VI      LIFE  WITH  ASYA,  THE  RE  ICHSBANK   CONNECTION,    THE  NAZIS,    AND 

EMIGRATION  TO  THE  UNITED  STATES:      1929  TO   1938  55 
Important  Affiliation  with   the  Deutsche  Reichsbank   in  the 

Naz I    Era  55 


More  on  the  Trip  to   Israel:     Decision  to  Emigrate  to  New 

York,    1935  and   1936  56 

Deciding  Not  to  Found  a  Jewish  Music  Publishing  House  56 

Final    Weeks    In  Germany:     Late  1936  and  1937  57 

Concern  and  Preparation  for  Border  Crossing  59 

Journey   to  Paris  to  Visit  a  Special    Brother  59 

Arrival    In  New  York  City    In  January   1938  60 

VII      NEW   LIFE  AND  CAREER  AS  A  NUMISMATIST   IN  NEW   YORK  CITY:      1938 

TO  1942  61 

Getting  Started  with  the  Help  of  Friends  61 

Miraculous  Meeting  with   Coin  Dealer,   Mr.   Metal  62 
Beginning  Business  as  a  Numismatist   In  1939— At  Age  Fifty-Two       63 

A  New  Partnership:     Numismatic  Fine  Arts  63 
Valuable  Connection  with   the  German  Numismatist,    David 

Nussbaum  64 

Closing  the  Partnership  with  Mr.   Metal    In  1940  66 

Some  Further  Thoughts  About  the  Story  to  Come  67 

Professional    Affiliations  Begin   In  New  York  City,    1938  68 
1940  Move  to  Madison  Avenue  and  95th  Street:     A  Growing 

Business  69 

An    Interesting  Friend  and  Customei — Maxime  Velay  70 
A  Third  Organization:     The  American  Numismatic  Association 

(ANA)  71 
The  Wei  I    Publ Ished  Classica !  Jewel ry   Exhibition,    and  Personal 

Business  Style  72 

More  on  Family  Background  73 

Establishing  Close  Connections  with  Two  Renowned  Dealers  73 

Dealer  Jacob  HIrsch  73 

Dealer  Joseph  Brummer  74 

Friendship  with  Art  Restorer,    Joseph  Ternbach  75 

Move  to  101    West  55th  Street,   Tenth   Floor,    In  1942  75 

The  1942  Letter  on  Numismatics  to  Universities,    Colleges, 

and  Museums  76 

Good  Response  to  the  Circular  Letter  77 
Establishing  a  Connection  with    Istanbul    Dealers  for  Valuable 

Materials   in  1942  78 

VIM      EXPANDING    IN  NUMISMATICS   THROUGH   CONTACTS  WITH  SCHOLARS: 

1942  TO  1951  79 

Connection  with   Dr.   Karl   Lehmann-Hartleben  79 

Another  Friend,    Scholar  David  M.    Robinson  80 
A  Story  About  Authenticity  of  Coins  and  Professor  Agnes 

Baldwin  Brett  81 

Professor  Alfred  Salmony — Friend  and  Art  History  Scholar  82 

Professor   Ernst  Herzfel d— Excavator   and  Coin  Collector  82 
Professor  Guldo  KIsch,    Margareta  Bleber,   GIsela  RIchter,   Homer 

and  Dorothy  Thompson:     Scholars  and  Collectors  83 
The  Largest  Privately  Owned  Numismatic  Library:     Transfer  to 

UCLA  Through  Professor  Milton  Anastos  84 

The  Dumbarton  Oaks  Connection:     Scholars  and  Numismatists  84 


Numismatic  Fine  Arts  and  New   Friendships  with   Collectors  of 
Ancient  Coins  86 

Arthur  S.    Dewlng's  Remarkable  Collection  and  his  Frugality     86 
Dr.    J.   Hewitt  Judd»   Omaha:     Greek  and  American  Coins*   and 

a  Burglary  Loss  87 

Burton  Y.   Berry,    Istanbul:     Collector  of  Phillip  and 

Alexander  Coins 

Friendship  with  Hans  von  Aulock,    Istanbul  90 

Leopold  Cansio,   Washington,    D.C. :     A  Special    Friend  91 

X     CHOOSING  CALIFORNIA  AS  THE  PLACE  TO  LIVE:     A  NEW  BERKELEY  HOME 
AND  NEW  CONNECTIONS,    1951    TO  1957  93 

Deciding  Where  to  Settle:     Tour  Around  the  United  States   In 

1951  93 

Decision  to  Move  to  Berkeley,    California,   and  to  Build 

a  Home,    1952 

Continued  Contact  with  New  York  Customers,    in  Berkeley  94 

More  on  Professor  Arthur  S.    Dewing  94 

Alfred  Schoenllcht  and  the  Jade  Buffalo  95 

Kenneth  Richmond  and  the  Connection  with  Colonel    Dykman, 

Princess  Xenia,   and  Dr.   Herman  Felth  96 

Cataloging  and  Sale  of  the  Grand  Duke  George  Michal lov Ich's 
Great  Russian  Coin  and  Medals  Col  lection— For  Princess 
Xenia  97 

Finding  an  Appropriate  Buyer  for   the  Medals,    In   1957  98 

Gifts  of  Appreciation  to  the  American  Numismatic  Society    (ANS) 

and  President  Franklin  D.   Roosevelt 

Friendship  with  Writer  Louis  Zara  100 

Remembering  a  Thirtieth  Birthday  Gift  from  Paula:     The  Lapis 

Lazul  I  "Gans"  Ring 

Unchanging  Life  Philosophy  and  Business  Style  101 

Affiliation  with  the  International  Association  of  Professional 
Numismatists  ( IAPN)  102 

X  TRAVEL,  NEW  AND  RENEWED  FRIENDSHIPS,  AND  THE  MOVE  FROM  COIN  TO 
SEAL  COLLECTING:  1958  TO  1971  103 

The  European  Adventures,  Israel,  and  Attendance  at  an 
International  Association  of  Professional  Numismatists' 
Meeting,  1958  and  1961  103 

Developing  a  Close  Friendship  with  Dr.  Robert  E.  Gobi, 

Israel  Visit,  and  Meeting  Hans  von  Aulock  103 

Canadian  Travel,  1960  Sale  of  the  George  Bauer  Collection, 

and  Personal  Illness  104 

The  Rome  Trip  In  1961:  Combined  Meetings  of  the  IAPN  and  the 
International  Numismatists  Congress  105 

The  Vatican  Coins  105 

Visit  with  the  Ernst  Nash  Family  106 

From  Hobby  to  Investment  Only:  Coin  Collecting  In  the  1960s 

and  1970s  106 

Disappointing  Experience  with  a  Major  European  Dealer        107 


Questionable  Activity  by  an  Unnamed  American  Dealer  108 

Unauthorized  Sale  of   the  Edward  Cans  Firm  Name: 

"Numismatic  Fine  Arts"  109 

Fair  Dealing  by   the  New  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  110 

More  on  the  Gift  of   the  Numismatic  Library  to  UCLA  110 

Acquiring  Significant  Seals  from  Hans  von  Aulock   In   Istanbul* 
and  Professor  Edith  Porada's  Six-Year  Evaluation  of  the 
Collection,    1961   To  1968  111 

Acquiring  Professor  Grosse's  Oriental    Seals  and  Jade  Objects 
from  TIkotIn   In  the  Early  1970s,   and  Na  Chl-Llang's 
Description  113 

Miracle  Acquisitions  of  Seals  from  England,    Thailand,    Mexico 
and  Ecuador  Lead  to  the  Concept  of   Comparative  Study  of 
Seals — SIgll lography  114 

Beginning  a  Friendly  Relationship  with   the  University  of 

California  at  Berkeley's  Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies     116 

XI      RARE  COINS   SOLD,    SEALS  ACQUIRED,    UNUSUAL   FRIENDS  AND  EVENTS: 

1951    TO  1978  117 

Salman  Schocken's  Acquisition  of   a  Rare  Greek  Coin,    His 

Berkeley  Visit,   and  the   Introduction  to  Norman  Davis  117 

Keeping  Business  Going  After  Age  Seventy:     Life  Challenges 

and  Problems  Liquidating  Coins  119 

Working  with   Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel    on  the  Comparative 

Study  of  Seals  119 

More  on  Fel Ix  TIkotln's  Visit,    and  Acquiring  and  Cataloging 

Professor  Grosse's  Seal    Collection,   about  1970  121 

More  on  the  Connection  with  Na  Chl-Liang,    Taiwan,    for 

Cataloging  the  Grosse  Collection  121 

Friendship  with   Fred  Stress,    and  Acquisition  of  Valuable 

Egyptian,    Mexican,   Guatemalan,    Ecuadorian,    Cretan,   Persian, 

and   Indian  Seals  122 

Thoughts  About  this  History,    Personal    Philosophy,   and  the 

Miraculous  Additions  to  the  Seal    Collection  123 

The  Valuable  Mohenjo-Daro  Seal  124 

Rare  Seals  from  Thailand  124 

Two  Unusual    Seals  from  China  124 

Friendship  with  Professor  Helmpel:     Lodging  the  Seal 

Collection  at  U.C.   Berkeley  125 

More  on  the  "New"  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  126 

XII     LIVING  WITH  ASYA  AND  MUSIC:      1939  TO  1979  127 

Musician  Friends  and  Music   In  New   York  City   and  Berkeley  127 

Asya:     Her  Music,    Falling  Health,   and  Passing   In  1979  129 

XIII      MIRACULOUS   EVENTS,    NEW  TASKS,    PAST  REMEMBRANCES,    LOVING  FRIENDS 

AND  FAMILY:      1979  TO  1984  131 

Expanding  the  Seal    Collection:     A  Special    Location  on  the 

U.C.   Campus 
Recalling   1979:     Asya's  Passing,    a  Loving  Mother,    and 

Events  From  Long  Ago  132 


Natasha  Borovsky:     Author*    Poet»    Translator/    Friend*    and 

Helping  to  Proofread  her  Manuscript — at  Age  92,    1979  134 
Meeting  Artist,    Lucy   Kaplan,    Through  Natasha:     The  Adoption, 

and  Lucy's  Daughters  135 
Lucy — An  Adopted  Daughter 

More  About  Natasha,   Lucy,   and  Lucy's  Daughters  137 

A  Need  to  Be  With  People  139 
More  on  Lucy  Kaplan's  Work  and  Daughters:     Meagan  and 

Justine  139 
More  on  the  Berlin  Years  and  the  Summer  House  for  Bank 

Employees  140 

Lydla  Gans — A  Remarkable  Daughter  141 

XIV     THE  STORY  ABOUT  THE  SASANIAN   SEALS,    THE  NEW   NUMISMATIC  FINE 

ARTS,    PAST  COLLECTING,    AND  THE  RENAISSANCE   MEDALS  142 

Acquiring  the  Sasanlan  and  Portrait  Seals,    1984  142 

Louis  Pappas  and  the  Portrait  Seals  143 

Obtaining  Clay    Impressions  of  the  Seal    Collection  144 
More  on  the  New  Numismatic  Fine  Arts:     Bruce  McNal I's 

Successful    Dealership  145 

SIgmund  Morgenroth  and  Son:     Source  of  Useful    Coins  146 
The  Decision  to  Move  from  Coin  to  Seal    Col lectlng  at 

Age  Seventy-Five  147 
More  on  the  Sasanlan  Seals,    U.C.   Berkeley,    and  the  Propriety 

of    Importing  and  Exporting  National    Treasures  148 

The  Study  of   Renaissance  Medals  149 

The    Impressive  Morgenroth  Collection  149 

The  Gans  Study  of  Goethe's  Renaissance    Italian  Medals  150 

XV     MORE  ON  SEALS   COLLECTING  AND  VIEWPOINTS  ON   THE   PAST  AND   FUTURE, 

1983  TO  1985  153 
Thoughts  on  Deteriorating  Eyesight  Following  Surgery,    and 

the  Last  Trip  with  Asya   In  1961  153 
More  Recollections  on  Moving  to  Seals  Collecting  and  Problems 

Liquidating  the  Coin  Dealership  154 

More  on  Sources  for  Seals  155 

Albert  Baldwin  155 

Fred  Stress  155 

More  Thoughts  on  the  Changing  Coin  Market  156 

Another  Miracle— The  Seals  Collection  157 

More  on  the  Comparative  Collection  with  Wolfgang  Hetmpel  158 

Seals  from  Crete  and  Ecuador  158 

More  on  Fel Ix  TIkotIn  and  the  Grosse  Col  lection  159 

Problems  with  Documentation  of  the  Chinese  and  Japanese 

Seal    Col  lections  160 

More  on  Na  Chl-LIang's  Catalog  161 
More  on  the  Mohenjo-Daro  and  Thailand  Seals,    and  Exporting 

Treasures  162 

More  on  Acquisition  of   the  Sasanlan  Seals  163 

Some  Thoughts  on  the    IAPN  and  Collecting  Seals  164 

More  on  the  Move  to  Seal    Collecting  166 


Fred  Stress  167 

More  on  Acquiring  Oriental,    Mexican,    Indian,  and 

Sasanlan  Seals  167 

XVI      MORE  RECOLLECTIONS  ON  A  LONG  LIFE  AS   COIN   DEALER,    COLLECTOR, 

FRIEND,    AND  FATHER  170 

More  on  Collecting  as  an   Investment  170 
Reflections  on  Lifestyle  and  the  Need  to  Listen  to  the  Heart       172 

Recalling  a  Close  Connection  with  Michael    Sloan,  In  Postwar 

New   York  173 

The    Important  "Lucky   Seven"  Women  174 

The  Life-Fulfilling  Events  to  Come:     Request  to  Postpone 

This  Oral    History's  Completion  176 

More  on  Natasha's  Novels  176 

Remarkable  Care  From  Polly  Horn  177 

Daughter  Lydla's    Invitation  to  China  178 

More  on  Adopted  Daugher,    Lucy  179 

Polly  Horn's  Special   Care  179 

Reflecting  on  Life  at  Age  Ninety-Eight  180 

Lydla's  Thoughts  on  her   Father's  Caring  Philosophy  180 

Closing  the  Story  on  Seal    Collecting  181 

More  on  the  Gift  of  Philosopher   Felix  Mautner's  Works  184 

Natasha's  Second  Novel:     A  Remarkable  Romantic  Story  185 

XVII  ADDENDUM  TO  MY  ORAL  HISTORY  187 
December  5,    1984  187 

Dealing  with   Dealers  and  Museums  187 

June  18,    1985  189 

More  on   Dealing  with   Dealers  and  Museums  1S 

October  20,    1985  193 

A  New  Scrapbook  193 

October  21,    1985  195 

October  26,    1985  195 

Two  Stories  199 

Fowler  McCormack  199 

Dr.    J.    H.    Judd  200 

XVIII  POSTSCRIPTS  WRITTEN  IN  MY  HUNDREDTH  YEAR  202 
June  29,  1987 

Another  Postscript  202 

TAPE  GUIDE  203 

APPENDIX  206 

INDEX  246 


PREFACE 


One  morning   In  the  spring  of   1978,    at  my  bus  stop  In  downtown  Berkeley, 
an  elegant  elder  couple,    unmistakably  European,    caught  my  attention.     As  we 
rode  the  bus   up  the  hill    together,    I    discovered  that  Edward  and  Asya  Cans, 
my  new  acquaintances,    had  known  my  father,    Alexander  Borovsky,    In  the  early 
thirties   In  Berlin.      They   had  heard  of   me  and  my    long  Illness  through  mutual 
friends. 

This  chance  meeting  was  the  beginning  of  a  friendship  "which  only  grew 
the  more  close  and  precious  after  Asya   left   us,"  (In   Edward's   words),    In 
August   1979.      Not  only   did  Edward  become   Involved  In  my  personal    concerns — 
my  children,    my  new  husband,    my  house,    my  health — but  he  participated 
actively    In  my   professional    life  as  poet  and  novelist.      He  attended  poetry 
readings,    read  my   proofs,   was  the  first  to  hear  a  fresh   poem,   the  first  to 
buy   a  copy,    or    Indeed  several,    of   my   novel.      I    drew   freely  on  his  German 
recollections  for  my  current  work  In  progress.      He  was   both  witness  and 
Instrument   In  the  dramatic  Improvement  that  my  personal    as  wel  I   as  my 
professional    life  underwent  over  these  past  seven  years. 

To  know   this  extraordinary   man  has  also  been  a  privilege   In  a   larger 
sense.      Not  only    Is  he  the  storehouse  of  a  century  of  history,    a  repository 
of   culture  and  knowledge,    but   someone  with  the  capacity  both  to  expand 
outwardly  and  grow    Inwardly.      I   watched  him  grapple  with  and  finally  embrace 
radical    new   concepts   In  poetry   and  art  as  In  human  relations.      I   saw   him 
acknowledge  the  spiritual    dimension. 

Although   Edward  Cans  no   longer  rides  the  bus   due  to  his  falling 
eyesight,   he  still    walks   past  my   house  on  the  hill    every  morning.     A   little 
more  bent,    not  quite  as   dapper  perhaps,    he   Is  still    essentially   as    I 
described  him    In  the  following  poem.     Only   the  title   Is   in  error.     'The 
Crowning  Hour"  was  not  on  his  ninety-third  birthday.     The  crowning  hour    Is 
yet  to  come. 

Natasha  Borovsky 


July,    1987 
Berkeley,    California 


ii 


THE  CROWNING  HOUR* 
A  VILANELLE 

Three  years  and  ninety  have  not  bowed  his  frame, 

the  dapper  gentleman  in  silk  cravat. 

His  nimble  mind  and  legs  put  youth  to  shame. 

He  proudly  bears  an  old  Hebraic  name. 

His  age  with  recollections  rich  is  packed. 

Three  years  and  ninety  have  not  bowed  his  frame. 

In  all  his  dealings,  scrupulous  of  blame. 

His  native  Hamburg  ethic  kept  intact. 

His  nimble  mind  and  legs  put  youth  to  shame. 

From  dilettante  collector  to  just  fame, 

The  world  of  numismatics  doffs  its  hat. 

Three  years  and  ninety  have  not  bowed  his  frame. 

His  heart,  by  grief  unliardened,  grows  humane. 
No  pleasure  charms  him  like  a  kindly  act. 
His  nimble  mind  and  legs  put  youth  to  shame. 

He  still  brings  verve  and  vigor  to  life's  game. 
He  overrides  five  generations'  gap. 
Three  years  and  ninety  have  not  bowed  his  frame. 
His  nimble  mind  and  legs  put  youth  to  shame. 


To  Eduard  Cans  upon  his  birthday, 
August  27,  1980 


*  Borovsky,    Natasha,    Drops  of   Glass:      Poems    in  Major 
and  Minor — New   Forms   and   Old.      Tabula  Rasa   Press, 
Pasadena,    California,    1981. 


iii 


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS 


On  behalf  of  future  scholars*  we  thank  those  persons  who  have  made 
this  oral  history  possible: 


The  Chancellor's  Office  for  funding  support 

The  Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies  for  their  sponsorship 
of  this  oral  history 

Professor  Wolfgang  Hetmpel,  Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies* 
for  providing  technical  help  on  numismatics  and  slgl I lography. 
and  for  writing  the  Introduction 

The  Advisory  Committee  for  help  In  formulating  questions: 
Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel.  Near  Eastern  Studies 
Professor  David  Stronach.  Near  Eastern  Studies 
Professor  Ronald  Stroud,  Classics 
Professor  Emeritus  W.  Kendrlck  Prltchett.  Greek 
Professor  Emeritus  Darrel I  A.  Amyx.  History  of  Art 

Ora  Huth,  Interviewer-editor,  for  her  persistence  and  caring 
attention  and  many  hours  of  volunteer  work  during  the  period 
when  there  was  no  funding  to  continue  the  project 

And»  In  particular: 

Edward  Gans  for  his  extensive  time  and  attention  In  recording  and 
reviewing  the  transcripts,  and  his  additional  financial  support  to 
allow  for  more  detail  and  1 1  I ustratlve  material s; 

His  daughter  Lydla  Gans,  for  her  assistance  In  the  editing  and  for 
her  financial  support; 

His  adopted  daughter  Lucy  Kaplan  for  her  ongoing  encouragement  and 
assistance  In  the  oral  history. 


WII la  Baum 
Division  Head 


August.  1987 

Regional  Oral  History  Office 


iv 


INTRODUCTION 

It   Is  not  common  that  a  person  receives  the  first  copy  of  the  story  of 
his   life  on  his  100th  birthday.     The  bystanders  will    Inevitably  speculate 
about  Edward  Gans1   secret  of    longevity   and  many  of  them  will    have  an   Idea 
about   It.      In  one  of  the  Interviews,    Lydla  says  about  her   father:      'Ne's   so 
strong   In  confidence,    and   In  his  giving  support  and  positive  reactions  to 
people's  work,"  and  Ora  Huth,    the   Interviewer,    comments:      "That's   probably 
been  his  approach   through   his   lifetime,    and  one  reason  why   he's   lived  to  age 
ninety-eight."     I    can  only   contribute  my   belief   that  his   diet   does   not   seem 
to  be  a  reason  because   It  consists  to  a  good  part  of   chocolate  cake. 

It   Is,   of   course,    not  the  number  of  years  that  counts   In  a   life  but 
their  contents.     Also,    it   Is  not  the  number  of   pages  and  cost  of  their 
printing  that  counts   In  a  biography   but  the  frankness  of    Its  words.      It  will 
not  take  the  reader  much   reading  to  discover  that  Edward  Gans'    life   Is  rich 
and  varied,    and  that  he  tells  about   It  frankly.     As  a   consequence,    his 
history   has  acquired  that  property   that  he  holds   in  highest  esteem:     a 
continuing  value   (elnen   blelbenden  Wert). 

From   my   particular  point  of  view,    I   want  to  Indicate  just  one  element 
that  contributes  to  this  value.     Historians,    when   using  the  kind  of  objects 
that  can  be  found   In  Edward  Gans'   seal    collection  as  source  material,   throw 
up  their  hands  In  frustration   If  the  object  comes  from   the  antiquities 
market.      For  them    it  means  that  the  f  Indspot  Is  not  known — and  the  findspot 
Is  for  them  almost  as  valuable  as  the  object.      They   will    want  to  trace  it 
through  that  market   In  the  hope  to  discover  the  findspot  after  all.     Then 
they  will    be  frustrated  a  second  time  because  there   Is   usually   no  record  of 
the  circumstances  of   acquisition.      In  the  case  of   Edward  Gans'   collection 
there  Is  this  oral    history,    containing,    as   it   does,    a  wealth  of   Information 
about  just  that. 

I   am   sure  that  the  reader,    whatever  his,   or  her,    particular   inclination 
might  be,   will   find  other  elements  that  are  meaningful   to  him  and  thus 
reveal    themselves  as  part  of   a  continuing  value. 


Wolfgang  J.   Helmpel 


July,  1987 

Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies 

609  Evans  Hal  I 

University  of  California 

Berkeley,    Cal  ifornla 


INTERVIEW   HISTORY 


Edward  Gans  was  asked  to  do  an  oral    history  because  of  his 
distinguished  career  as  a  renowned  numismatist  who  collected  and  studied 
ancient  coins  and  seals;   as  a  preeminent  collector  of   Classical, 
Hellenistic*   and  Roman  jewelry;  and  as  an  esteemed  donor  of  rare  seals  and 
books   to  the  University   of   Cal Ifornla  at  Berkeley   (UCB)  and  Los  Angeles 
(UCLA).      Remarkably*    many  of   these  achievements  took  place  In  the  second 
half  of   his   long,    eventful    life,    after  age  fifty,    and  many  of  his  seals  were 
acquired  after  age  ninety.      His  gift  of   his  collection  of  over  one  thousand 
ancient  seals  from  many  cultures,    worldwide,    and  his  valuable   library  on 
seals  to  the  Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies,   UCB,    Is  the  basis  for 
scholarly   research   already   underway    In  comparative  slgl I lography.     Because 
of  his  reassuring  and  caring  ways,    his  warmth  and  understanding,    and  the 
support  he  gives  to  family,    friends,    and  acquaintances,    he   Is  treasured  and 
much    loved  as  a  father,    grandfather,    friend,   and  associate. 

Born    In  Hamburg,   Germany,   on  August  27,   1887,   Edward  Gans  was  the 
youngest  of  five  children,   four  sons  and  a  daughter,   of  a  cigar  merchant  and 
an  actress-housewife.     His  mother  was  widowed  when  an  Influenza  epidemic  was 
fatal    to  his  father  and  a  brother.     Supported  by  a  banker  uncle  who  lived  In 
Berlin,    he  had  private  schooling  and  pursued  his   Interests   In  chemistry, 
music,   and  tennis.     He  did  well    In  school,    sang,    played  the  violin  and 
viola,    and  acquired  the  ethics  and  attributes  of   a  '^Hamburg  boy"  such   as 
reliability,    truthful  I  ness,   and  promptness  that  remained  as   lifetime  traits. 
He  was  apprenticed  to  an  export  house  at  age  seventeen.     With  the  help  of 
his   brother,   Robert,   at  age  nineteen  he  moved  to  Berlin  and  began  a  new 
lifestyle  as  a  representative  for  a  firm   dealing   In  stocks  and  bonds.      It 
was  fortunate  that  during  World  War    I   a  clerk  gave  him   the  title  "banker" 
because    It  gave  him  office  rather  than  frontline  military   duty. 

In  1912  Edward  Gans  met  Paula  Muller,    also  from  Hamburg,   as  they 
traveled  over  a  holiday  to  visit  their  mothers.      They   married  and  "the  best 
two  years  of  his   life"  followed.     Through  her  work  for  a  Berlin  firm  dealing 
In   fine  art  objects,    they   began  collecting  artworks.      Moreover,    because  of 
his  wartime  connections,    Edward  became  a  director  for  the  Deutsche 
Landerbank.      Paula  managed  the  flourishing  art  shop,    and  through    It  they 
enjoyed  friendship  with  Berlin's   leading  musicians,    writers,    and  artists. 
She  died  tragically    In   1926,    and  for   Edward  the  art  collecting  ended.      Soon, 
through  friends,   ancient  Greek  and  Roman  coin  collecting  began,   and  he  got 
back   Into  music.      He  hired  Asya  Marshack,    a  Russian  music  student,   to 
accompany   him  as  he  practiced  his  violin,   and  within  two  years  they  married. 

During  the  Berl  In  years,    Edward  Gans  made  many  close  friends,    many  of 
whom  were  prominent  In  the  cultural    life  of  the  city  and  Germany.     He  tells 
us  that  as  he  pursued  his  varied   Interests,    Including  coin  collecting,    he 
never  made  a  friend  "for   business  reasons."     As  a  Jew   when  the  Nazis   came, 
he  could  not   be  a  bank  official,   but  he  continued  working    In  stocks  and 
bonds.      Finally,    aided  by  a  banker  friend,    he   left  Germany  with   Asya,    six- 


vi 


year-old  daughter  Lydla,   and  his  art  and  coin  collections — arriving   In  New 
York  City    In    late  1937.     Finding  suitable  work  was   difficult,    until    he  met 
the  man  who  became  his  partner   In  an  ancient  coin  dealership — as  the 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts  (NUFINA)  firm  was   born.     When  his  partner   left,   he 
continued  alone,    and  the  firm  prospered   In  New   York,    then   In  California  when 
the  family  moved  to  Berkeley   In  1953  while  Lydla  was  a  student  at  UCB. 

A   letter  sent  by   Edward  Gans  In  March  1942  to  museums,    colleges,    and 
universities   led  to  close  connections  with  scholars,    Increasing  business  for 
NUFINA,    and   leadership   In  several    professional    numismatic  organizations. 
From  1958  to  1971   there  was   less  business   In  the  coin  trade  and   Increasing 
Interest   In  seals. 

In  1979  when  he  was  ninety-two,    Edward's  wife  Asya  passed  away.     He 
tells  of  the  deep  depression  that  followed  and  how,    slowly,    the  void  that 
was   left  with   her   death   began  to  be  filled  by  his  family  and  new   friends  who 
came   Into  his   life,    Including  Lucy  Kaplan,   who  became  his  adopted  daughter. 

In  his  oral    history   Edward  Gans  tells  about  the  gift  of   his  library  on 
ancient  coins  to  UCLA.     He   describes  how   the  seals  collection   grew   as  a 
close  connection  was  made  with  the  Department  of   Near  Eastern  Studies  (UCB), 
and  Important  acquisitions  were  made  with  the  assistance  of   Professor 
Wolfgang  Helmpel.     He  tells  how   he  and  Professor  Helmpel    jointly  proposed 
the  comparative  slgl I lography   study,   research  and  compilation  of   a  catalog, 
and  the  gift  of   the  seals  and  accompanying   library   to  the  university. 

The  Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies  suggested  the  Edward  Gans  oral 
history   proceed  with  the  assistance  of  an   Illustrious  Berkeley  campus 
advisory  committee  composed  of  Professor  Heimpel,    and  professors  David 
Stronach,    Near  Eastern  Studies;   Ronald  Stroud,    classics;    W.    Kendrlck 
Prltchett,    (Emeritus)  Greek;   and  Darrel  I    A.   Amyx,    history  of   art.      With   the 
advice  of   the  committee  and  research  on  Edward  Gans'   background,    career,    and 
Interests,   an  outline  was  prepared,    approved,    and  used   In    Interviews  that 
were  recorded  on  forty-one  tapes  on  the  fol lowing  dates: 


Intervl ew 

Interview 

Interview 

Interview 

Interview  5 

Interview  6 

Interview  7 

Interview 

Interview 

Interview 


8 

9 
10 


September  22,  1983 
September  28,  1983 
October  3,  1983 
October  10,  1983 
October  31,  1983 
November  7,  1983 
November 
November 
November 


December 


14,  1983 
23,  1983 
30,  1983 
7,  1983 


Interview  11  December  14,  1983 

Interview  12  January  4,  1984 

Interview  13  January  25,  1984 

Interview  14  February  9,  1984 

Interview  15  May  6,  1984 

Interview  16  July  18,  1984 

Interview  17  December  20,  1984 

Interview  18  January  8,  1985 

Interview  19  August  28,  1985 


Interview  10  was  videotaped  by  Chuck  Lelghton,  program  producer  for 
KTVU  Television,  Channel  2,  Oakland,  to  be  used  for  a  program  series  on  the 
values  to  society  of  the  elderly.   Mr.  Gans  received  a  copy  of  that 
videotape  which  we  hope  he  will  present  to  The  Bancroft  Library. 


Vll 


The  Interviews  took  place   In  the  book-lined  study  of  the  beautiful    home 
of  Edward  Gans  designed  by  his  Berkeley  friend,    the   late  renowned  Hamburg 
architect,    Oscar  Gerson.      The  rooms  were  tastefully  decorated  with  many   fine 
furnishings.    Including  Asya's  grand  piano,    and  artifacts  acquired   In  the 
Berlin  years.      Mr.   Gans  was  comfortably   seated   In  a  chair  facing  the 
Interviewer  next  to  a  picture  window  overlooking  his  well-kept  garden.     He 
often  got  up  to  walk  around  the  room   as  he  talked  or  retrieved  resources 
pertaining  to  the  Interviews.     He  spoke  slowly,    pausing  often,    with  his 
thoughts  following   logically,   and  with  clear  and  vivid  recall,  even  of 
events  of  over  eighty  or  more  years  before.      Some  tapes  were  self-recorded 
by   Mr.    Gans  without  the   Interviewer  present,    as  he  thought  of  more  he  wanted 
to  say,    and  he  expressed  the  hope  he  would  not  be  adding  too  much  to  the 
costs  of   the  oral    history. 

As  the  project  began,   Edward  Gans  spoke  of  his  deep  depression 
following  the  death  of  his  wife,    Asya,    and  thoughts  that  there  was  nothing 
of    Interest   left  for  him  because  of   his  poor  hearing  and  falling  eyesight. 
As  the  Interviews  went  along,    he  would  telephone  the   Interviewer  to  say   he 
had  "so  much  to  tell,"  and  that  he  had  difficulty  waiting  until    the  next 
scheduled  session.     Often  he  was  asked   If  he  was  tired  and  If  he  wanted  to 
rest  or  quit  after  two  or  three  hours  of  taping,    and  he  would  say  he  was  so 
Involved  and  he  had  so  much  to  say  that  he  "could  go  on  for  hours."     When 
the  Interviewing  seemed  to  be  complete  but  several   months  had  passed*    he 
would  call   to  say  he  had  more  to  add  and  ask  the   Interviewer  to  come  again 
with   the  tape  recorder. 

The  transcribing  and  editing  processes  were  more  than  ordinarily  time 
consuming  and  difficult.      The  tapes  were  hard  to  transcribe  because  of   Mr. 
Gans1    unusually    long   pauses  on  the  tapes  while  he  collected  his  thoughts, 
his  heavy  German  accent,    and  the  fact  that  he   liked  to  walk  around  the  room 
while  he  spoke — so  some  words  were  unclear  or  not  on  the  tape.     Professor 
Helmpel's  help  was  sought  to  f  1 1  I    In  specialized  words  or  words  of  German 
derivation  on  the  rough   transcript.     The  editing  also  was  more  elaborate 
than   usual    In  that  Mr.  Gans  requested  that  his  German   syntax  be  revised  to 
proper  English.      The  editor  tried  to  retain  the  very   sparkling*     lively  and 
descriptive  essence  of   Mr.    Gans1  conversation  and  still    adhere  to  his 
wishes. 

Because  of   his  poor   eyesight,    for  his  own  review    Mr.  Gans  had  to  depend 
on  his  daughter  Lydla,    a   professor  of  mathematics  at  Cal    Poly    In  Pomona* 
when  she  came  up  to  visit  her   father.     Together  they  carefully  reviewed  the 
edited  transcript  for  repetitive  material,    errors,    and  to  provide  valuable 
additions.     Considerable  time  was  spent  by  the  editor,    working  with   Mr.  Gans 
and  his   daughters,    In  selecting  and  preparing  photographs,    Including 
translations  from  German  to  English,    and  other  supplementary    Illustrative 
material.     Materials  not  Included  In  the  volume  are  deposited  In  The 
Bancroft  Library   for  research   reference. 

The  oral  history,  here  presented  In  the  order  In  which  It  took  place, 
Is  not  only  a  record  of  a  remarkable  career  but  also  of  the  lively  life  of 
the  mind  of  a  creative  Individual  approaching  his  hundredth  year.  The 


viii 


Interviewing  became  a  continuing  part  of   Mr.   Gans'    life  as  he  found  a   need 
to  enhance*    modify*   or  augment  what  had  been  recorded   In  preceding  sessions. 
Vivid   Impressions  of  events  as  a  young  man  were  primarily  on  his  mind,    but 
he  also  had  present   day  experiences  to  relate.      During  the  four  years  that 
he  worked  on  his  oral    history,   he  was   Involved   In  significant  activities, 
came  up  with    Imaginative   Ideas,    and  new   friends  entered  his  life, 
particularly  after  he  acquired  a  powerful    radio  and  an  exceptional    hearing 
aid. 

Throughout  the  Interviews  Edward  Gans  would  comment  that  each  major 
event  he  spoke  of  was  the  result  of  a  "miracle"  that  just  happened  without 
Input  on  his  part.      However,    Lydla  says  he   Is  so  open  and  supportive  of 
everyone  around  him  that  he  causes  the  miracles  to  happen.     He  continues  to 
find  new   things  to  do,    for  example,    taking  piano  lessons  and  composing 
music.     Recently,   with  his  powerful    hearing  aid,    he   Is  able  to  listen  to 
books  on  tape.      His  current  reading  project  via  taped  books   Is  Professor 
Page  Smith's  Trial   By  Fire.      It   Is  volume  five  of   seven  volumes  on  the 
History  of   the  Civil    War  and  Reconstruction.     When  he  had  finished  the  first 
two  volumes,   he  was  so  Impressed  by  the  author's  writing  that  he  wrote  a 
letter  to  tel I    him  about   It,    noting  that  he  will    be  one  hundred  years  old  on 
August  27th.     Professor  Page  Smith,    of  U.C.   Santa  Cruz,    was  so  amazed  at  the 
letter  he  received  that  he  cal  led  Mr.  Gans  and  came  to  see  him.     Now   they 
are  friends,   he  comes  often,   and  he  brings  his  wife. 

A  telling  quotation  from   Edward  Gans'  oral    history  was  this  comment 
about  the  work  of  his  adopted  daughter,   Lucy,   and  his  daughter,    Lydla: 

Lucy    Is  working  at  the  jail    In  Martinez.     That's  one  of 
six  jails   In  this  country    In  the  modern   style.      She   Is  teaching 
painting  and  she  brings  them  music,    and  now   she  brings  them 
photography  and  encourages  them.      They  try  to  help  the   Inmates. 
So  every  one  of  my  children   does  something  for  mankind,    and  that 
Is  what    I'm  proud  of.      Lydla   Is  teaching  mathematics   In  China. 
I    don't  do  anything;   It's  Lydta's   Idea  to  do  al  I    this.      It's 
not  the  case  that  she  would  take  more  care  of  her  father.      No. 
It   Is  all    for  mankind.     But  that   Is,   on  the  other  hand,    helping 
people,   and    I   am  happy  about   It,   and    I    like  to  encourage   It. 

Ora  Huth 
Interviewer-Editor 


20  July   1987 

Regional    Oral    History   Office 

486  The  Bancroft  Library 

University  of  California  at  Berkeley 


Regional  Oral  History  Office  lx  University  of  California 

Room  486  The  Bancroft  Library  .  Berlceley,' California  94720 


BIOGRAPHICAL  INFORMATION 
(Please  print  or  write  clearly) 

Your  full  name  fc  ^  6*j  A  &   D  vAlJS 


Date  of  birth 

Father's  full  name  •      J 


<J7    l%%?  Place  of  birth         //<t>»~/tcc4 


Birthplace 


Occupation    _  /?7\lxL  <>TX^h/T 


*^st*^T*4 


Mother's   full  name  dAjvrJ^'          XvnX)  /Tl/X        _J  ( 


_\ 
Birthplace    _  U 


Occupation 


Where  did  you  grow  up  ? 
Present  community  _____ 
Education  / 


o 

IL 


Occupation(s) 


Special  interests  or  activities 

(7 


I      EARLY  CULTURAL   AND  BUSINESS  LIFE    IN  HAMBURG:    1887  TO  1909 
[Interview   1:     September  22,    1983]## 

• 

The  Earlv   Years 


Huth:      Mr.  Gans,    will    you  please  begin  with  your  recollections  of  your 

earliest  years»    beginning  with  some  background  about  your  family  and 
when  you  were  born? 

Gans:      My   father  was  born   In  1840   In  Hamburg  and  my  mother  was  born  In 

Vienna   In   1844.     My  mother  was  an  actress — In  Krefeld,   Hamburg*   and 
at  the  Burgtheater    In  Vienna.      Her  maiden  name  was  Carol  Ine 
Singer.    I    still    have  a  well    preserved  poster  noting  her  guest  appear 
ance   there   In   1869.     She  evidently   preferred  marriage  to  my   father 
to  continuing  her   career.      My  mother  was  a  very    loving  person.     Her 
main    Interest  was   literature  and  she  was  a  talented  pianist.     She 
Instilled   In  me  my   love  for  music.      In   later  years*    when    I   took  up 
the  violin*    she  accompanied  me. 

My   parents  married   In   1870.     Their  first  child  was  a   daughter, 
born   In  1871.     She  had  a  slightly  malformed  back  and  remained  at  home 
as  a  companion  to  my   mother  until    her  death   In  1930.     From   1872  to 
1875,    three  sons  were  born:   Alfred,    In   1872;   SIgmund,    In   1874;   and 
Robert,     In  1875.      (SIgmund  died   In  1894).      I   arrived  twelve  years 
later. 

I    was  born   In  Hamburg,   Germany  on  August  27,   1887,   as  the  sixth 
child  and  as  a  Nachkommer  [latecomer].     My  brothers  were  from  twelve 
to  sixteen  years  older  than    I.     The  closest   In  age  was  twelve  years 
ol der. 


##ThIs  symbol    Indicates  that  a  tape  or   a  segment  of  a  tape  has  begun 
or  ended.      For  a   guide  to  the  tapes  see   page  203. 


Cans:      My  father  died  in  1894  when    I   was  six.       I   had  virtually  only  women 

around  me,    because   I   was  brought  up  primarily  by  my  mother  and  older 
sister.     This  sister  was  slightly   disabled  because  of  the  trouble 
with  her  back,    and  as  such,    was  a  problem  for  her  three  younger 
brothers.  She  always   dealt  with   us   In  a  not  too  friendly  way,   and 
never   married.      She   died   in  Thressionstatt   in  1942. 

The  difference  in  age  between  me  and  my  brothers  meant    I   had 
little  contact  with  them.     Besides,    both    left  Hamburg  at  an  early   age. 
It   Is  true  that  "a  Hamburg  boy"  wanted  to  see  the  world.      In  his   eyes, 
Hamburg  was  a  provincial    town. 

My  older  brother,   Alfred,    went  to  Berlin,   where  he  had  a  job   in  a 
bank.     He  soon  established  himself  at  the  Berlin  Stock  Exchange.      At 
the  exchange  and  in  related  circles  were  mostly  young  men  whose 
style  of    I  ife  was  "We In.    Weib  und  Gesang"  [wine,   women  and  song]. 

My   younger  brother,    Robert,    went  to  Paris.     There,    he  was  the 
contact  for  his  company.     His  Hamburg  boss  was  the  owner  of   a  Paris 
firm.      Robert  transferred  to  the  Paris  business.     He  married,    had  two 
children,   and  probably  would  have   led  a  happy    life  to  his  end,    had 
the  war  not  come.      Later,    I   also   left  Hamburg. 


Schooling  and  Future  Prospects 


Gans:    There    is  very    little  to  say   about  my   youth   and  schooling.      My   education 
lay  entirely    in  my  mother's  hands.      I   went  to  a   private  school. 

Huth :     Do  you  remember  the  name  of   the  school? 

Gans:     Yes.      I   went  to  the  private  school    of   Dr.   Theodor  Wahnschaff.      When  a 
special    examination  was  passed,    the  military  duty   was  only  one  year, 
instead  of  two  or  three  years.      This  was   important  for  the  future  of 
any  German,    and  particularly   for  any  Hamburg  boy.      I    passed  the 
exami  nation. 

I   was  fifteen  years  old  at  that  time,    and  my  mother  asked,   "What 
do  you  want  to  become?"     I    said,   "I    want  to  be  a   chemist."     My  mother 
said,    "I    can't   say   anything  about  that.      I   have  to  ask  the  friends  of 
your  father,    who  always  advise  me  on  what  should  be   done."     When  the 
friends  heard  that   I   wanted  to  be  a  chemist,   they    laughed  and  said, 
"A  chemist?     Thafs  not  a  Hamburg  profession.     Any   decent  Hamburg  boy 
has  to  be   In  a  Hamburg  business.      All   other   stuff    Is  nonsense.      We 
will   ask  one  of  the  big  Hamburg  export  houses  whether  they  will    take 
your    son   as  an   apprentice." 


> 


The  Cans  family  (left  to  right):   Edward  Cans'  brother,  Alfred;  his  sister,  therese; 
Edward  at  age  27;  his  mother,  Carolina;  his  mother's  sister,  Mathilde  Broda;  his  sister- 
in-law,  Berthe  (his  brother  Robert's  wife);  his  nephew,  Jacques  (Robert's  son);  his 
brother,  Robert;  and  his  nephew,  Francois  (Robert's  other  son).   The  occasion  was  the 
celebration  of  Carolina  Cans'  70th  birthday  at  her  apartment  in  Hamburg,  Germany,  on 
July  28,  1914,  the  day  the  world  burst  asunder  with  World  War  I. 


Cans:     So  it  happened*    three  days   later    I    was  ordered  to  start  my 

apprenticeship  at  the  export  house  of   Simon,    Israel    and  Company,   one 
of  the  four  most   important  exporting  houses   in  Hamburg. 


Hamburg  and    Its  Business  Classifications 


Cans:     Speaking  of   the  exodus  of  my  brothers  and  I    from  Hamburg  makes  this 
an  appropriate  place  to  say  a  few   words  about  the  city.     Hamburg  was 
founded  by   Charlemagne   in  800  A.D.    as  an   Imperial    Free  City,    and 
throughout  the  nearly   1200  years  of    its  existence   it  remained 
independent   and  free.      It  was  never  subject  to  any  other  country, 
ruler  or  city,    with  the  exception  of   the  few  years   under  Napoleon. 
When   navigation  of   the  seas  began,    the  Hansa*  was  founded  and  Hamburg 
was    its   leader.     Thus  when  trade   began  some  six  centuries  ago,   the 
Hamburg  port  was  the  greatest   in  Europe.     The  basic  rule,    valid  for 
centuries,    was  engraved  over  the  portal    of   the  city  hall.      It  read: 
"Navigare   Necesse  est;   Vlvere  Non"   ('Trade    is  necessary;   Life   is 
not.") 

Speaking  of   my  time   in  Hamburg  at  the  turn  of  the  century,    the 
new   part  of  the  city  was  beautiful,   and  the  old  part,   ugly.     As  to 
the  citizens  of   the  city,   may   he  be  a  big   industrialist  or  a 
shopkeeper,    everyone  was   striving  to   be   called  "honorable."     One's 
word  could  be  relied  on.     A   large  transaction  on  the  exchange  was 
closed  with  a  scrap  of   paper,    and  a   promise  to  deliver   bread  at 
6:00   a.m.    would   be   kept  at  6:00  a.m.      But  who  you  were  was   important. 
The  tennis  court  or   the  skating  rink   belonged  to  a  group  of   people 
who  called    it  a  "club."     If   you  wanted  to  skate  or   play  tennis,    you 
had  to  become  a  member.      You  might  be  rich  or   poor.      That   didn't 
matter,    but  when  you  were  a  shopkeeper,    you  could  not  be  a  member   if 
you  could  enter  the  shop   directly   from   the  street.      If  you  had  to 
cl  imb  a   few   steps  to  enter  the  shop,    you  could  get  a  membership  card. 

Bankers  and  owners  of  export  and   import  houses   belonged  to  the 
top  class.     When  they   happened  to  be  from   a  foreign  country 
(especially  England),    and,    if   they  wore  a  high  hat,    they   were 
especially    esteemed. 


*  Hansa:   Hanseatic  League, — a  mercantile  league  of  medieval   German 
towns.     The  league  was  never  officially   dissolved,    and  Lubeck,    Bremen 
and  Hamburg  are  still    known  as  the  Hanseatic  cities. 


Gans:     There  was  no  set  number  who  would  attend,    but  one  thing   did  happen 

that  was  very  amusing.      Dr.    Nlemeyer  made  a  bet  with  his  cellist  that 
he  would  learn  the  viola  within  three  months   in  order  to  play   a 
quartet  from  Haydn.     He  won  the  bet  and  was  so  happy  about  It  that 
he  called  on  his  brother  to  take  over   his   piano  playing. 
Incidentally*    he  was  an  old-fashioned  general    practice  doctor. 


An  Amusing  Event  for  Dr.   Nlemeyer 


Gans:     There   Is  one  amusing  thing  that   I   can  mention  now    in  connection  with 
Dr.   Nlemeyer.      We  were   leaving  one  night  around  twelve  o'clock 
midnight  when  the  telephone  rang.     Nlemeyer  came  back  from  the 
telephone  with  a  rather   unfriendly  face.      It  was  winter,   and  he  said, 
"Now    I'm   forced  to  drive  to  the  Veddel."     The  Veddel    is  very   far 
outside  Hamburg,    at   least  one  hour   by   buggy.      We  didn't  have  cars  at 
that  time.      That  was   in  1902. 

Naturally,   the  next  Sunday   we  talked  about  his  trip  to  the 
Veddel,   and  asked  him,   "What  was  so   Important  that  you  had  to  go  to 
the  Veddel ?"    Then  he  smiled  and  said,    "It  was  very    important.      At 
the   door,    the  young  husband  told  me,   'Doctor,    Doctor,    something 
terrible  has  happened  here.      My   wife  has  swallowed  a  Dutch  Klentja.'" 
A  Dutch  Klentja   Is  a  very    large  bon-bon  candy  of   the   size  of   a   potato. 
He  told  us  he  asked  the  man,    "She  swallowed   It?"    He  said,    "Yes, 
Doctor,    she  swallowed   It."     Dr.   Nlemeyer  told  him,    "That   is   a  very 
serious  affair.      You  have  to  go  to  the  pharmacy   right  away.     Buy   a 
rubber   bag  and   ice.     Fill    the  bag  with   ice  and  renew   the   ice  pack 
every   half   hour   until    tomorrow   morning."     That  was  his  treatment. 

Huth:      [laughs]     That's  an    interesting  story. 


Singing  with   the  Euthymia  Club 


Gans:     Another   activity    was   singing.      I    had  quite  a  good  voice  as  a  boy. 
There  was  the  Euthymia,   a  singing  club   in  Hamburg.      It  was  also 
called  the  Bleber  Club,    because  of   the  conductor  and  founder, 
August  Bleber.      This  singing  club  sponsored  three  activities.      One 
activity   was  that  once  a  year  we  gave  a  concert  for  men  and  boy's 
voices.     For  the  men  there  were  two  classes  for   baritone  voices  and 
two  classes  for  bass  and  tenor  voices.     For   the  boys  there  were 
classes  for   alto  and   soprano  voices. 


Cans:     Once  a  year  a  very  entertaining  concert  was  given,    and  that  was 
an  event  for  Hamburg*    because  the  members  of  the  choir  were  very 
often  members  of  the  so-called  society.     Very  wealthy  members 
supported  the  club.      I   was  around  twelve  years  old  at  that  time. 
The  second  activity  was  the  so-called  Pf  ingsten  [Whitsuntide  or 
Pentecost]  Tour,    celebrating  the  big  holiday,    held  seven  weeks  after 
Easter.   Tour  means  an  excursion.     We  made  excursions   in  the  neighbor 
hood  of  Hamburg  and  serenaded  some  wel  l-known  musicians  who  I  Ived 
close-by,   and  we  had  a  good  time  for   two  or  three  days. 


Cultivating  a  Love  for  Bach 


Cans:     A   major    activity    was   participation    In  Bach's  St.    Matthew's  Passion. 
The   boys'   choir   sang   solos  and   participated   in   the   chorales.      Dr. 
Bieber   used  this  performance  to  cultivate  a   love  for  Bach    in  the 
singers. 

During  the   intermission,    the  boys  roamed  through  the  big  concert 
building,    but  when  they   heard  Dr.   Bieber  at  the  piano  playing  the 
beginning  of   the  St.    Matthew's  Passion,    they   slowly  came  back  and 
carefully    listened  to  his  wonderful    playing  of  Bach.     That   Impressed 
me  as  a   boy. 

I    was  an  alto.     Once    I    was  supposed  to  get  a  solo,    but   it  turned 
out  that  my  voice  was  already   changing,    so   I    didn't  get   it.      During 
that  period   I    developed  a    love  for  music.      I    could  tell    a   lot  more 
about  music,    but    I    think  that's  enough — Nlemeyer,    Bach.      The  name 
Niemeyer   is  well-known   in  Germany,    because  his  uncle  was  a  very 
famous  political    lawyer.     There  were  other  musical   enterprises   In  all 
parts  of   Hamburg,    but  always  on  a  relatively  high  and  dilettantic 
I  eve  I. 


More  on  Music  at  Dr.    Nianever's 


Cans:     One  other   story   comes  back  that  happened   in  connection  with  Dr. 

Nlemeyer.     There  were  always  debates  about  the  programs  and  unusual 
pieces  of   music  were  proposed.     The  first  viol  Inist  was  at  the  same 
time  the  concertmaster  at  the  Hamburg  Opera.     He  was  requested  to 
bring  one  of   his  colleagues  from   the  opera,    someone  who  played  an 
unusual    instrument  such  as  a  horn  or   flute. 


8 


Gans:     One  amusing  thing  happened  when  the  Trout  Quintet  from  Schubert 
was   proposed  to  be  played.     This  required  a  piano»    violin*    viola* 
cello*   and  contrabass.      There  was  naturally   no  contrabass  among  regular 
dilettantes*   and  the  concertmaster   brought  a  Mr.  Gaithe*   who  was  the 
foremost  contrabass! st  at  the  opera.     He  was  a  charming  old-fashioned 
man.     He  took  me  aside*    pointed  to  a  place  where  I*    as  a  viola 
player,    had  a  few   solo  parts  to  play»   and  he  said  to  me,    "These 
measures  you  must  pi  ay  so  f  ine.  53  f I ne  as  i  f  you  woul d  si  ice  w  ith  a 
knife  through  goose  fat."     That  was,    for  him,    the  greatest   degree  of 
fineness — to  "slice  with   a  knife  through   goose  fat."     I    know   that  as 
if   I   could  see  him  before  me.      I  remembei — and  that  happened  some 
eighty  years  ago.     At  that  time   I    was  maybe  fifteen  years  old. 


Activities  at  Hamburg  Snorts   Clubs 


Gans:     The  main  activity  for  me  at  that  time  was  music*    singing*    Geige 

[violin],    and  viola.     There  were  other  activities,    especially   sporting 
activities,    that  were  taken  pretty   seriously.     We  played  tennis   in 
summer  and  went  skating  in  winter.     All   of  these  were  engaged  In  from 
specific  sport  clubs,    which  were  unfortunately   also  exclusive.     For 
instance,    people  who  owned  a  shop  somewhere  could  not  become  members. 

Huth:     How   did  you  become  a  member? 

Gans:      My  mother  was  just  a  Rente  [living  from  private   income],    living  from 
some  means  without  having  to  earn  a   living.      She  had  a  regular   income 
that  was  not  earned  through   an  open  shop.      If   ray  mother  had  a  drug 
store  business,     I   would  have  been   nothing. 

Huth:     Was  she  well-known  as  an  actress  at  that  time? 

Gans:     No.     She  was  unknown.     She  was  just  at  the  beginning  of  an  acting 
career   and  married  early    in  her   life. 

II 


Apprenti  cesh I D    In   a  Hambura   Exnort  House.    1 Q02 


Huth:     Now,    let's  move  on  to  a  new   phase   In  your   life*    when  you  became  an 
apprentice  at  Simon,    Israel    and  Company,    the  Hamburg  export  house. 

Gans:      I    had  to   learn  the  most  primitive  things*    how   to  add,    how   to  paste  a 


Cans:      stamp  on  an  envelope*    how  to  tie  string  around  a  parcel*    and  more 
advanced  activities  came  later. 

Huth:     What  were  your  earnings  at  that  time? 

Cans:     My  earnings  were  a  hundred  marks  a  year,    as  an  apprentice  with    low 

earnings.     The  second  year,    I   earned  two  hundred  marks,   and  the   next 
year   three  hundred  marks.      I    got   It   In  one  payment,    and  nothing 
else—not  even  a  Christmas   present. 

Huth:     What  were  the  rules  of   work— for  example,    as  to  time  worked? 

Cans:     The  normal   rules  were  to  work  from  nine  to  five,    but  very   often  more 
time  was  required.      It  happened  that  for  months   I   worked  until    seven 
or  eight  o'clock  at  night,    and  sometimes   until   midnight.      The 
principal    rule,    which   could  never  be  comprcmised,    was  that  every 
Friday  all   of   the  mail    had  to  be  completed  and  on   Its  way.      No 
exceptions  were  allowed.     That   is  the  way  of   business  for   a  reliable, 
honorable  Hamburg  Kaufman   [businessman].   You  cannot  give  any 
concessions   in  that  respect.      That   Is  the  way    it  has  to  be  done.      Each 
order  was  thoroughly  checked,   and  when  a  reply  was  given,    in  one  way 
or   another,    it  was  checked  off   as  having  been  completed. 

Huth:     What  can  you  tell   me  about  your   boss  at  that  time? 

0 
Cans:     My   boss  was  not  only  a  gentleman,    and  very  good-looking,    but  he  had 

the  great  advantage  of   having  been  born   in  England.      An  English 
merchant  was  even  a    little  more   Important  than  a  Hamburg  merchant. 


More  on  Musical    Activities  and  Friends 


Cans:     This  brings  me  to  another  musical    affair.      At  two  different  times, 

we  young  people  had  formed  two  orchestras,    real   orchestras.      We  gave 
one  concert  every  year,    and  we  had  very   nice  and   interesting  comrades 
playing    In   the  orchestras.      One  conductor,    whose   name   I've  forgotten, 
had  a  sister  who  was  about  to  become  a  soloist.      For  our   concert,    we 
played  one  act  of   the  Marriage  of   Figaro,    and  she  was  the  soloist. 

I   remember  one  other  very  amusing  conversation  with  one  of  my 
friends.     His  name  was  Franz   Monckeberg,   the  son  of   a  Burgermei  ster, 
the  "mayor"  (highest  official)  of   the  city.      That   is    Important.      We 
were  quite  good  friends,    because  he  sometimes  accompanied  me  on  the 
piano.     Once  he  said  to  me,    "Do  you   know   that  our  next-door   neighbors 
are  the  Simons,    your   boss  from   the  Simon,    Israel    company?"  "No,"   I 


10 


Cans:     replied.      Then  Franz  asked.    "Why   are  the  young  Simons  so  hochnaslfl 
[arrogant]?"    This   Is  what  he  said  about  the  sons  of   my   boss.     This 
Is  so  typical   of  Hamburg.     He  was  the  son  of   a  Burgermei  ster,    in 
other  words,    like  being  the  son  of   the  king  of   Hamburg.     Yet  he  could 
complain  that  these  sons  from  this  other  occupational    category  were 
hochnaslg   by   saying,    "Why   are  the  sons  so  hochnaslg?"     This    is  a 
typical   case  for  Hamburg,    where  an  English  export  family  could 
pretend  to  be  hochnaslg  against  the  son  of   the  mayor  of  Hamburg,    a 
very  famous  mayor.      I   could  be  friends  with  the  son,    but    I   would 
never   dare  to  see  the  Burgermei ster,   and  that   Is  so  typical    of 
Hamburg. 

Here  you  see  that  the  sons  of   a  first-rate  export  house  owner, 
who  was  born   in  Hamburg,   considered  themselves  "finer"  than  a  mayor's 
son.      Laborer's   don't   count.      At  the    low    end  are   shopkeepers  and  any 
kind   of    laborer. 

A  Hamburg  youth   (those  who  really  counted)  had  to   learn  the 
trade  during  the  first  few  years  as  an  apprentice  or   beginner.     Then 
he  had  to  acquire  knowledge  and  experience  from   the  other  side  of  the 
world — where  the  products  came  from.      It  was  best  to   learn   local 
customs  for   those  who  were  to  receive  Income  from   home  products. 
However,   there  were  some  young  men  who  wanted  to  forget  the  dry 
Hamburg   I  ife.    and  so  they   went  to  London,    Paris,   and  Berl  in. 

Hamburg  was  really   dry,    particularly  for  young  people.     This  had 
nothing  to  do  with    its  size,    because   it  was  the  second   largest  city 
In  Germany.     The  cultural    aspect  was  sparsely   represented  and  even 
less   cultivated.    So-called  entertainment  was  non-existent. 


Advancement   In  the  Export  Business  at  Aae   17,    1904   to  1909 


Huth:     Now,   we  are  ready  for  the  story  about  your   boss. 

Gans:      I    was  working  one  night.      It  was  close  to  midnight  when   I   heard 

footsteps,    and  my  boss  appeared.     He  asked,    "What  are  you  doing  here 
so   late?"     And  when   I    started  to  give  him  an  explanation,    he  said. 
"Enough,   enough,   you  will    tell   me  tomorrow."     He   did,   and    I   told   him 
that  the  head  of   my   department,    a  Mr.   Vogelsang,    had  been  sick,    that 
he  asked  me  to  bring  him  all    of   the  correspondence  concerning  our 
customers,    that   I   was  visiting  him  when  he  told  details  from  this 
correspondence  to  some  of  his  friends  who  were  also  visiting  him,    and 
that  these  persons  were  employees  of  our  competitors.      I  also 
told  my  boss  that  Mr.   Vogelsang  knew  very  well    that   I   worked  during 
the   night,    and  that  he  didn't  even  have  a   thank-you  for   all    my   work. 
My   boss  only  replied,      "Gans,    take  one  lesson.      In   business   life, 
gratitude   does   not   exist." 


11 


Huth:     How  old  were  you  then? 

Gans:      I    was  seventeen.      I    have  always  been  a  good*    responsible  employee. 
When    I    say    I    will    come  at  one  o'clock,     I    come  at  one  o'clock.      That 
is  my   way  of    life.      I   could  succeed   In  all   my  endeavors — because  I 
paid  my  bills  on  the   day    I    got  them.      That's  just  the  way    I   was — my 
Hamburg  education,    in  that  respect,    was  a  part  of   me.     But  what  was 
anti-Hamburg,    the  art,    was  also   Inside  me.      So   I   had  the  good  side 
from   both.     That  is  why    I   wanted  to  talk  about  that. 

Huth:      We  needed  to  hear  about  your   I  ife   in  Hamburg.     Now,    what  happened  as 
a  result  of   that  episode  with  your  boss? 

Gans:      Mr.   Vogelsang  was   dismissed.      I    got  to  try  out   in  his  position,    and    I 
could  keep    it.      I    worked   in  that  job  for  another  year  or   two.      I    was 
head  of  a  department  for   trade  with   Morocco  and  the  Canary    Islands, 
and  also   for    India   and  China. 

In   business  as  well    as   in   lifestyle,    there  was  a  strict  moral 
code  and  customs  that  governed.     Here   is  an  example:  a  newly 
establ  Ished  commodity    firm   grew   very   fast  and  was  very  successful. 
Then  came  failure,    and  there  was  an  attempt  to  repair   It  unlawfully. 
The  firm's  owner  appealed  to  his  brother   for  help.      The  brother  agreed 
and  everything  was   settled,    under  one  condition — the  firm's  owner  had 
to   shoot  himself  on  his  parents'  grave,    and  his  brother  agreed  he 
would  take  care  of   the  widowed  wife  and  the  child  for   life.      That   is 
what  he  did,    and  then  the  firm's  partner,    who  was  of   'Berlin" 
caliber,    was  sent  to  America. 


Impact  of   Hamburg  Expectations  on  Private  Life 


Gans:      I    have  one  more  thing  to  tel  I    about  Hamburg.     The  private  I  ife  was 
also  typical    of  Hamburg.      There   is  one  event  that  Is  especially 
typical    of  Hamburg.      My   neighbors  were  a  family  of  two  or  three  boys, 
and  one  girl.      It  was  a   neighborly   friendship.      With  the  boys    I 
played  chess;  with  the  girl    I    went  dancing.      I   regularly  met  her  at 
the  city's  official    dancing  events.      We  went   dancing   In  the  after 
noons  and   in  the  evenings.     Anyway,    what  was  typical    was  that  she  was 
not  among  my  closest  friends.  But  when   I   moved  from  Hamburg  to  Berlin 
she  was  the  only  one  who  accompanied  my  mother  and  sister  to  the 
station  and  to  the  train  for  a  farewell.     This  was  the  first  and   last 
time    I    got  a  kiss  from  a  girl    in  Hamburg — not  from  any  other  girl    or 
from   her   before  this  time.   That  was  my   first  kiss.   That   Is  a  "sketch" 
of    life   in  Hamburg  at  the  turn  of   the  century.     All    that  was  part  of 
the   life  as  compared  with  today.     That  was  a  chapter  on  Hamburg. 


12 

Huth:  Do  you  want  to  continue  with  the  next  events  In  your  life? 

Cans:   I  feel  I  can  talk  until  tomorrow,  [laughter]  I'm  happy  to  be  absolved 
of  al  I  my  other  concerns. 

Huth:  I  have  some  more  time. 

Cans:  Good.  You  tell  me  when  we  should  end  for  the  day. 

Huth:  So,  shal I  we  move  on  to  Berl In? 

Gans:  Now  comes  Berlin. 


13 


II   LIFE  IN  BERLIN  AS  REMISS  IER,  HUSBAND,  ARMY  RESERVIST, 
AND  BANKER:  1909  TO  1925 


Move  to  Berl  in  in  1909 


Huth:  How  did  you  happen  to  go  to  Berlin? 

Cans:  Many  of  the  most  important  events  In  my  life  happened  by  chance, 

without  the  need  for  me  to  make  any  decisions  or  to  Influence  what 
happened.   This  was  one  of  those  unusual  events. 

I  got  a  telephone  call  from  my  brother  In  Berlin,  who  told  me 
that  he  was  going  to  separate  from  his  partner,  and  that  his  boss, 
Mr.  Oscar  Rosenberg,  owner  of  the  firm  0.  R.  Rosenberg  and  Company, 
London  and  Vienna,  would  be  In  Berlin  the  next  Sunday.  He  said  it 
might  be  a  good  idea  that  I  meet  him.  At  that  time,  my  brother  also 
represented  foreign  banking  firms  in  New  York  and  Paris. 


Becoming  a  Foreign  Bank  Representative 


Gans:  When  I  met  Mr.  Rosenberg,  he  looked  at  me  and  asked,  "Would  you  like 
to  join  your  brother?"  I  said,  "Yes."  He  said,  "What  do  you  earn  at 
the  present  time?"  When  I  said,  "Two  hundred  marks,"  he  replied  that 
he  would  offer  me  three  hundred  marks. 

Huth:  That's  per  year? 

Gans:  Yes.  Natural  ly,  I  accepted.  And  from  a  Hamburg  exporter,  I  became  a 
Berlin  rem issier.  as  the  profession  of  my  brother  was  called.   It 
simply  meant  a  representative  of  an  aus landlsch  [foreign]  banking 
f  I  rm. 


14 


Huth:     How  did  your   boss  react? 

Gans:     When    I    Informed  my  boss   in  Hamburg  accordingly,    he  remarked  that   I 
should  have  told  him   before   I    decided.     He  said  he  had   Intended  to 
send  me  to  South  America*    but  now    it  was  too  late.     Naturally,    my 
vacation  was   also   cancelled. 

Huth:     Do  you  want  to  take  a  rest  now? 

Gans:      I   am  agitated.      I    can  talk  for  hours.      As   long  as  you  can 
conti  nue. 

Huth:      I'm  all    set.      Shall    we  go  ahead? 
Gans:     We  can  continue.     Now  comes  Berlin. 


Trans! tion  to  a  Berl In  L  ifesty le 


Gans:     The  Berl  In  life  was  a  100  percent  change.      I    did  not   live  with  my 

mother  and  sister  any  more.  I  I  Ived  with  two  Hamburg  friends  who  had 
also  moved  to  Berlin.  One  was  a  friend  from  the  tennis  club.  We  can 
pass  over  this  period  of  my  life  easily.  Nothing  much  happened  about 
which  I  can  be  proud. 

Huth:     How  old  were  you  when  you  moved  to  Berl  in? 

Gans:      I   was  twenty-two  years  old. 

Huth:      Do  you  remember  what  year  you  made  this  move? 

Gans:      It  happened  in  1909.      What  struck  me  mainly   in  the  first  few  years  was 
the  unsolidity  of   the  general    life   In  Berlin.      Everything  was  a  gamble. 

Huth:     Not  solid   like  back   in  Hamburg? 

Gans:     Yes.     Hamburg  was  everything  solid.    In  Berlin,    everything  was  a 

gamble.     The  stock  exchange  was  100  percent  a   gamble,    in  any   kind  of 
shares,    and  so  were  the  activities  of   my   brother's  and  my  business, 
except  that  the  gambling  took  place   in  London  or  Paris  or  New   York, 
or   somewhere  else. 


15 
Teletype  Connection  Expands  Business 

Gans:     We  had  the  good   luck  to  be  the  first  to  get  In  contact— with  the 

fernschreiber. 

Huth:     What  does  that  mean? 

Gans:     This   Is  an   instrument,    similar  to  a  telephone,    through  which  we 
conducted  business  from  our  office — probably   a  form  of   teletype 
equipment.      At  the  same  time,    we  had  an  agent   In  the  German  city  of 
Emden.     They  had  the  end  connection  of   the  first  American-German 
cable.      It  was  called  the  New   York-Azores-Emden  Cable. 


## 


Gans:     Our   communications  were  much   faster  than  the  regular  postal   service. 
At  the  same  time  we  were  always   in  contact  by  telephone  with  our 
twenty   customers,    because  we  had  twenty   direct  telephones,    one  for 
each   customer.      They   were  morally  obliged  to  give  their  orders  to  us. 
By  telephone  or   teletype  we  would  buy    five  hundred  steel,    buy  a 
thousand  steel,    or   buy   so-and-so   in  London,    or  buy   this-and- 
that    in  Paris.      It  was  all    a  gamble,    and  nothing  but  a  gamble. 


Huth:     Was   it  all    dealing   in   stocks  or   bonds? 
Gans:      Yes.      Only    in   stocks,    bonds,    or  whatever. 


Edward  Gans.    Registered  Banker    in   1910 


Gans:     Now   comes  a  very  funny   story.     At  one  time — I    believe   It  was   In  New 
York — a   law   was  promulgated  that  a  representative  of  a  New  York  firm 
could   not  represent  any  other  firm.     So  my   bosses  said  to  me,   "We 
will    make  an  arrangement.      You  set  up  a  separate  firm  to  take  the 
representation  of  New  York,   and  our  firm  will    keep  all    the  European 
representation.      But    let  us  be  on  the  safe  side.      You  go  to  the 
respective  German   legal    office  to  have  your  firm  registered. 

So  far   it  was  simply  "Alfred  Gans,    Representative,"  Now    It  was 
ordered  that  every   firm    in  New   York  have  a   different  representative. 
So  my   brother  Alfred  said,   "Edward   Is  the  representative   in  New   York, 
and    I    will    keep   all    the  other  ones." 


16 


Gans:     So   I  appeared  at  the   legal    office  and  the  old-fashioned  fellow 

in  charge  there  asked  me.    "You  want  to  register  your  firm,    Edward 
Gans?      Okay.      What  are  you?"     I    said,    "I    am  a  remissier."     "What    is 
that?"     he  questioned.      'There    is  no  such   thing  as  a  remissier.      A 
remissier   is  a   trader  for   a  foreign  Bankhaus   [bank].      You  are  a 
representative  or   a   foreign   banker."     He   continued.      "So  you   are  either 
a  representative  or  you   are  a   foreign    banker.      Nothing   else  exists." 

Huth:     Nothing   in  between,      [laughs] 

Gans:     Being  well    aware  of   the  aversion  to  the  word  "representative,"   I 
chose  the  word  "banker."     And  with   this    I    was   given   the  title 
"banker,"  which  became  extremely  worthwhile,    because  after  World  War   I 
It  was  extremely   difficult  to  be  registered  as  a  banker. 

My   firm,    "Edward  Gans,"  was,    as   I   proudly  proclaimed,    registered 
as   a  Bankgeshaft   in   1910,    four  years   before   the  First  World  War. 
Only   because   this    idiot   dared  not  put  "remissier"  down.      "What's  a 
remissier?"     he  said.      That's  the  way    I    became  a   banker. 


Trading   in  Foreign  Securities  Only,    1910  to  1914 


Gans:      I   was  never  employed  as  a  banker  and  never    learned  banking   in  all    my 
life. 

Huth:     So  even   though   you   were  officially  titled  a  "banker,"  you  continued 
to  work   In  the  trading  of   stocks  and   bonds. 

Gans:     Yes.      I    was  only  a  representative.      I    sent  a  cable,    "Mr.    So-and-so 
buys  500   steel,"  period.      Nothing  more.      I    was   a   representative. 
This  was    in  1910. 

I   think  that  from   then  on,    as  far  as  my   life  was  concerned, 
everything  became  art,   and  everything  concerned  with   business  was  of 
no    interest.      I    became  a   lover  of   collecting,    and  nothing  else.      I 
hated  my   profession,    and  today    I    hate   it.    This  was   in   1910. 


17 

Meeting   First   Wife.    Paula.    In   1912:   the  Real    Story    to  Come  Later 


Cans:      I    met  my   first  wife,    Paula,    in  1912.     We  were  married  for  fourteen 
years  and  then  she  passed  away.      Then    I   felt  as   if   my    life  was 
finished.     The  story    is  much   too   Involved  and  too   Important  to  tell 
today. 

Now,  for  the  sake  of  continuity,  I  will  continue  to  talk  about 
business  events  until  the  end  of  World  War  I,  and  only  incidentally 
tell  about  my  first  marriage. 

Huth:      We'll    come  back   later  to  the  period  of  your   first  marriage. 


Ml  I  itarv   Reserve  Service  During  Worl d  War    I ;      1914  to  1918 


Cans:     The  war   broke  out   in   1914.      My   military   passport  noted  the  fact  that   I 
needed  a  hearing  aid  and  that  my  military  orders  would  be  delayed 
cal  I    reserve.     The  most  qua  I  if  ied  were  cal  led  very   early.      I    was  not 
called  for  army   duty   until    March,    1915. 

Since    I    was  never  dec  I ared  el  igi  bl e  for  m  i I  i tary  serv  ice  w  ith 
any   weapon,    I    was   classified  for  active   duty  only  with  a  shovel.      I 
was   immediately  sent  to  a  digging  regiment   in  Glogau.      With  what 
turned  out  to  be  good   luck  for.  me,    the  regiment's  pay  master  was 
sick.      This   led  to  the  transfer  of   all    money   affairs  to  the  top 
sergeant.      Since  the  sergeant  had  no  background   In  money   affairs,    on 
the  first   day   he  asked  all    newcomers,   "What   Is  your   profession?" 
When    I    was  the  only  one  who  could  say,   "I'm  a  banker,"  he   immediately 
called  me  and  said,   "From   now   on  your  office   is   In  the  writing  room." 
Because  of  this,    during  the  war    I    never  had  a  shooting   instrument   In 
my    hand. 

There  were  several    colleagues  working  at  a  writing  desk.     All 
were  former  businessmen,    all   as  qualified  as   I   was  for  these  writing 
jobs.      We  all    worked  very  hard.      I   remember  that  there  were  nights  when 
we  worked  all    night,   but   it  was  still    better   than   going  to  the  front. 

Huth:     How  many   years  were  you   In  that  office? 

Cans:      I   worked   In  that  office  for  one  and  a  half  years.      Then    I    tried  to  get 
a   different  kind  of    duty.     There  were  jobs  available  for    limited 
service  army  personnel,    because  government  controlled  firms  were 


18 


Gans:     established  for  the  manufacture  of   scarce  articles.      For  example* 
there  were  companies  for    leather*    for  certain  metals*    and  for  all 
kinds  of   textiles.     Luck  brought  me   Into  contact  with  one  of   the 
officials  of   the  government's  textile  company.      He  engaged  me*    and   I 
was  employed  there  for  a  year. 

Huth:     Were  you  still    in  the  army   at  this  time? 

Gans:     Yes.     As  the  war  progressed*    there  were  military  reverses  and  all    of 
these  government  firms  had  to  discharge  some  employees.     One  activity 
deserves  notice.     Naturally*    this  was  a  time  when  the  government 
needed  money. 


Aiding  Germany's  War  Loan  Efforts 


Gans:     Germany's  war  loans  were  advertised  through   the  press  and  other 
means.      I   was   Informed  about   It  and  thought  of   a  way   to  help.      I 
decided  to  write  to  the  commanding  officer*    a  General   Von 
Brauchltsch.      I    suggested  that  all    soldiers  be   Informed  about  the 
importance  of  contributing  to  the  war   loan*    and  that    I*   as  a   banker* 
would  know    how  to  inform  the  soldiers  about  their  opportunity  to 
contribute.      I   also  asked  that   I    be  allowed  to  offer  a  soldier 
participating   in  the  war    loan  a  couple  days  of   furlough  for  his 
contribution. 

Two  days   later   the  adjutant,   a  Lieutenant  Findeklee,   called  me 
to  his  office.      I    gave  him  a  personal    report  about  my   suggestions. 
The  next  day   he  cal led  me  again  to  tel I    me  the  general    had  approved 
my   Idea  and  that  every  half-hour    I    could  give  my    Ideas  about  the  war 
loan  to  a  group  of   fifty  or  a  hundred  men.      When    I    said*    "If   you 
sign  a  hundred  mark   loan*    I    can  give  you  a  three-day  furlough,"     they 
all    signed.     The  first  time   I    brought  three  hundred  thousand  marks 
together,   and  the  second  time  over  a  million  marks.      We   did  that 
every   six  months*   and  we  doubled  our   receipts  each   time. 

After  the  second  great  success.    Lieutenant  Findeklee  called  me: 
"We  would   I  ike  to  do  something  for  you.     Do  you  have  a  special    wish?" 
I   said   I   would  like  to  have  the    Iron  Cross,    fashioned   in  white  on 
black  ribbon.     The   Iron  Cross  was  usually   fabricated  with   the 
decoration   In  black  on  white  ribbon.     But  for  civil    purposes,    the 
white  on  black  ribbon  was  used.      In  other   words,   this  had  to  do 
with  turning  the   decoration  around. 


19 


Gans:     A  couple  of    days   later,    the   lieutenant  called  me  and  said,    Ml 

can   understand  your   request,    but    I   cannot  ask  the  general    to  do   it, 
because  he  himself    doesn't  have  the   Iron  Cross.      That  would  look  as    If 
he  would  also  like  to  order  one  for  himself.      I  will   tell  you 
something.      Instead  of   the    Iron  Cross,   you  will    be  promulgated  a 
"super  I  urn  I  nary  soldier." 

Huth:     And  what   did  that  mean? 

Gans:  That  I  was  still  a  regular  soldier,  but  Instead  of  being  an  ordinary 
one  I  was  a  "super I  urn i nary."  The  description  was  printed  In  a  pass 
port  that  I  still  have  which  reads:  uberzahllger  Gefreiter. 

Huth:      So  you  were   something  special. 

Gans:  I  was  something  special.  That  lasted  a  couple  of  months  until  I  was 
assigned  to  a  different  city,  the  city  of  Gorlitz. 

Huth:  So  you  left  Glogau,  where  you  were  stationed  when  you  were  doing  al  I 
this  ill  ustrious  work. 

Gans:     Yes.     Now   the  situation   became  critical.     Even  the  most  crippled  were 
cal led  to  the  army. 

Huth:      Do  you  know   what  year  this  was? 

Gans:     That  was   in  early   1918.      It  was  very   difficult  to  find  any   possibility 
to  avoid  dangerous   service  but    I   was  offered  one. 


Service  with   the  Blumenstein  Firm   in  Berl  in,    1918 


Gans:      I   met  a  certain  Mr.  Blumenstein.     He  had  one  patent  with  which  he 
could  make  sandbags  out  of   paper  yarn.     These  were  used  to  replace 
all    the  millions  of    sandbags   used  for  the  protection  of   soldiers   In 
the  di  gs. 

Huth:      In   the  trenches? 

Gans:     Yes,    the  trenches.      Millions  and  millions  of  such  sandbags  were  made 
and  consumed,   and  Mr.  Blumenstein  had  a  monopoly,    because  he  was  the 
greatest  maker  of   these  bags.      As  such,    he  had  a  certain   Influence, 
and  he  was  allowed  to  have  five  employees.      Since  he  had  only  claimed 
four   people  when  we  met,    he  decided  to  hire  me.      I   stayed  with  the 
Blumenstein   concern   until    the  end  of   the  war. 


20 


Huth:     Was  this   In  the  same  city  of  Gorlitz? 

Gans:     No.    that  was   in  Berlin.      Bl  umenstein's  central    office  was   in  Berlin, 
where   I   worked  until    the  end  of   the  war. 

Huth:     So  you  got  back  to  Berl  in  again. 

Gans:     Blumenstein  was  an  extremely  smart  industrialist,   but  when  we  met,  he 
was  nothing  but  a  bag  dealer,    dealing  with  old  bags.     When    I   entered 
the  Bl umenstein  firm,    he  had  forty  million  marks   lying   in   different 
banks   without    interest. 

Huth:      Did  you  help  him   do  something  with   the  money? 

Gans:      I   told  him   what  to  do  to  get  at   least   interest  on   it,    and  how   to 

invest.     From  this  point  on,    the  Blumenstein  firm  grew   and  grew   until 
the  end  of   the  war,    when    I    suggested  that  he  should  buy  a  bank  in 
order  to   Invest  all    the  profits. 


Becoming  a  Real    Banker:   The  Kol on! al bank.    1918   to  1925 


Gans:     Blumenstein   did   indeed  buy   a  Berlin  bank  called  the  Koloni al bank. 

This  bank  had  only  one  director,    by  the  name  of  Julius  Hel  Imann.     He 
made  me  co-director.      But  a  week   later  Blumenstein  had  a  terrific 
fight  with  Hel  Imann,   and  he   decided  to   leave  the  bank.     He  gave  me  the 
choice  of   remaining   In  the  bank  or   coming  back  Into  his  concern   in 
some  other  position.     The  whole  fight  was  so  unpleasant  that    I 
decided  to  choose  the  first  alternative.      I    separated  from 
Blumenstein,   and   I  was  now  for  the  first  time  a  real    bank  director. 

Huth:     Before  you  were  a  registered  banker,    but  now  you  were  real  I y  a 
banker. 

Gans:     Yes. 

Huth:     Do  you  think  we  should  stop  now   and  come  back  another   day? 

Gans:      I   will   finish  talking  about  my  whole  banking  career   until    the  end  of 
the  Kolonialbank — before   I    talk  about  Paula. 

Huth:     Yes,     I   think  that's  a   good   idea.      That  makes  a   lot  of    sense  to  put 
the  banking  experience  all    together,    and   if   you  wish,    go  on  to  your 
life  with  Paula.     How   do  you  feel?     Do  you  want  to  take  a  rest  now? 

Gans:      I    can  talk  until    tomorrow!      I've  never   felt  as  good  as    I    feel.      Shall 
I   continue  then? 


21 

Huth:      Yes.    go  right  ahead. 

Austrian  Connection  and  the  Deutsche  Landerbank 


Cans:     The  Kolonialbank  was  extending  a   loan.      There  was  no  money  to 

finance    it,    and  Hellmann  and   I   were  looking  for  people  who  would  be 
interested   in  joining  our   bank.     Through   a  mutual    friend,    we  found 
the  Oesterreichiche  Landerbank,    NV,    that  bought  shares   in  our  bank 
and  renamed   it  the  Deutsche  Landerbank.     Oesterreichiche  means 
Austria.      The  Oestereich iche  Landerbank  had  big  plans,    but  none  really 
succeeded,    and  they   decided  to  sell    their  one  quarter   shares  of   the 
Kolonialbank,    our   bank,    to  one  of   their  shareholders  by  the  name  of 
Oscar  von  Korner.      Do  you  have  time? 

Huth:      Yes. 

Gans:  Von  Korner  was  a  genial,  enterprising  person  of  the  greatest  style, 
but  unfortunately,  he  also  had  a  little  bit  of  a  gambling  vein.  The 
first  enterprise  that  was  under  my  supervision  was  the  opening  of  a 
branch  office  in  Hamburg.  This  worked  out  very  well.   I  supervised 
it,  and  went  to  Hamburg  every  four  weeks  or  so. 

We  planned  a  similar  enterprise  In  Silesia,  which  did  not  work 
out,  but  it  gave  me  the  opportunity  to  meet  a  fellow  who  played  a 
large  role  in  my  life  by  the  name  of  Kurt  Kruger.  He  was  a  kind  of 
certified  accountant,  and  brilliant. 

The  last  enterprise,  which  did  not  succeed,  was  a  branch  office 

opened  in  Dusseldorf,  in  which  a  number  of  the  great  Rheinish 

industrialists  intended  to  participate,  but  again,  I  did  not  want  to 
go  through  with  it. 

Huth:  Why  not  ? 

Gans:  Because  behind  the  director  of  this  branch,  there  was  a  lot  of 
illegal  gambling,  which  was  detected  at  the  right  time. 


22 


Acquiring  Fine  Banking  Property 


Gans:     A  great  event  also  happened  at  that  time,    around   1921.     The  real 

estate  agent  in  Berlin,   who  was  supposed  to  be  the   leading  one,   told 
me  under   strict  confidence  that  undoubtedly   the  finest  property    in 
the  city  was  for  sale.      Everybody   knows   it.      It   is  the  corner  of 
Unter   den  Linden  and  Brandenburger  Tor   [Brandenburg  Gate]. 

Unter  den  Linden  is  like  Market  Street  here.      The  most  famous 
street   In  Berlin,      [goes  to  get  picture  off   his  wall,    which   he 
describes]     Here  was  the  Brandenburger  Tor,   and  here   Is  the  palace  of 
the  emperor.     This  street,    Unter   den  Linden,    connects  with  the 
palace.      That  is  the  building,    and  that's  the  French  embassy,    and 
that    is  the  Pariser  Platz    (the  Platz    [place]  of   Paris).      And  this, 
together  with  the  house  there — actually,    it's  three  houses — I    bought 
all   of    it  for   ninety   million  marks.     This  block  consists  of   five 
houses,    situated  at  the  corner  of  Unter   den  Linden  and  Pariser   Platz, 
next  to  the  French   embassy.     Four   more  houses  are  attached  and 
located  on  neighboring  streets.      It  was  the  biggest  and  finest   deal, 
and  probably   the  finest  real    estate  property    in  Germany. 


New  Location  and  Leadership,    1921 


Gans:  It  was  around  1921  when  a  new  bank  building  was  erected  there.  This 
put  Deutsche  Landerbank  at  the  same  level  as  many  other  banks,  not  a 
great  bank,  but  I  ike  many  other  bankhouses. 

Huth:     Were  you  a   director  of   this   bank? 

Gans:     Yes,    when  von  Korner  bought  the  shares  of   the  Landerbank,    he  also  put 
his  brother-in-law    in  as  a   director.     His  name  was  Mr.  Hoffmann.     So 
now   there  were  three  directors,    Hellmann,   Hoffmann  and  me.      In  this 
connection,    I   will   mention  that  we  had  entered  Into  a  contract  with 
Professor  Nlkodem  Caro,    who  was  the   inventor  of   nitrogen.     This 
relationship  was  a  very   friendly  one,    and   later  on  Nlkodem's   brother 
also  became  a  co-director.     There  were  now    four   directors.     All    of 
this  happened   in  a  time  of   high   inflation. 


'23 
Takeover  by  I.  G.  Farbenlndustrie,  1925 


Gans:  The  inflation  ended  in  the  fall  of  1923.  Unfortunately,  in  this  year 
and  in  the  next  year  following,  1923  and  1924,  von  Korner  made  a  lot 
of  unfortunate  speculations  and  lost  all  of  his  money.  He  committed 
suicide  and  his  shares  came  on  the  market.  Now  another  person,  who 
also  happened  to  be  a  friend  of  my  colleague,  Hel  Imann,  entered  into 
action  that  brought  the  I.  G.  Farbenlndustrie  into  our  bank.   To  make  a 
long  story  short,  this  concern  bought  the  shares  from  von  Korner, 
because  they  wanted  to  have  this  building. 

Everything  that  was  the  business  of  the  Deutsche  Landerbank  was 
liquidated,  all  plans  were  canceled,  and  the  Deutsche  Landerbank  was 
declared  to  be  the  Hausbank  of  the  I.  G.  Farbeni ndustri e. 

Huth:  What  does  Hausbank  mean? 

Gans:  That  means  it  belongs  only  to  the  one  controlling  house  or  business 
that  has  no  other  bank  branches. 

ti 

Gans:     The  first  to  be   dismissed  was  Hel  Imann,    who  had  always  been  unpopular. 
The  next  was  Hoffmann.     After  his  brother-in-law's   death   he  had 
nothing  more  to  do  there.      Then   it  was  my   turn. 

Here,    I   would  like  to  make  a  few  remarks.      The  main   personality 
at  the    I.    G.    Farbeni  ndustrie  concern  was  Gehelmrat  Schmitz. 
Geheimrat — that's  a  title,    privy   councillor.      I   will    use   it,    because 
he's  always  known  by   that.      I    wanted  to  arrange  a  meeting  with  him. 
But  nothing  came  out  of   it  until    I   met  him  one  day  at  the  front  of 
the  door  of   the  business.      I   told  him  that   I    urgently   wnated  to  talk 
with  him,    and  he  promised  he  would  come  to  my  office  after   lunch. 
After    lunch,    the  discussion  took  place.      I    told  him  about  our  plans 
for  a  "real"  bank.      I   explained  we  could  have   done  this  much   earlier 
but  that  no  one  had  ever   discussed   it.      I    said   it  was  a  crime  to 
leave  out  such  an  opportunity.     His  reply   was,    "You  are  right,    but 
why   didn't  you  say   this  to  me  earl  ier?"     I    could  only   shrug  my 
shoulders  and   say,    "I    could   never   reach  you." 


Hitler   on  the  Horizon:    Exclusion   from    I.    G.    Farbenlndustrie 


Gans:     One  added  remark  here.      In  real  ity   we  were  now    in  1925,    and  the 
Hitler   idea  had  already   taken  hold.     There  were  no  Jews   in  the 
management   of    the    I.   G.   Farbeni  ndustrie  anymore.      Through   my 


24 


Gans:      friendship  with  Mr.   Kruger,    whom    I   mentioned  before,    they   used  me  for 
secret  business,    which    I    did  for  the  concern.     But  a  Jewish  official 
in   the   concern  was    impossible. 

Huth:     How    long  did  you  work  for  that  firm? 

Gans:      I   quit  after   seven  years  and  reopened  my  Edward  Gans — Bankgeshaft. 

In  my  next   interview — I   will    speak  of  my  marriage  and  of  my 
first  wife,    Paula. 


Paula  Cans,  Edward  Cans'  first  wife,  ca.  1914, 


25 

- 


Ill      TWO   MARRIAGES:  LIFESTYLE  CHANGES  AND  ANTIQUITY  ART  COLLECTING; 
1912  TO   1926 

[Interview  2:     September  28,    1983]##     - 


Huth:      Mr.  Gans,    today  we  agreed  that  you  would  talk  about  your  marriage  to 
your   first  wife,    Paula,    a  notable  phase   In  your    life,    and  the 
beginnings  of  your   Interest   In  antiquities  and  art  collecting. 


Meeting   Paula   Muller    in   1912 


Gans:      I    must  go  back  to  the  year   1912.      It  was  our  custom  that  on  hoi  I  days 
and  birthdays  we  visited  our  mother   In  Hamburg.     That  year,  on  the 
return  on  the  second  day   after  Easter,    I    had  a   seat  next  to  a  young 
lady  with  whom    I   soon  came  to  a  nice  talk.      She  had  also  visited  her 
mother    In  Hamburg.      She  also  worked   In  Berlin,    and   I   think   I   will 
start  telling  a   little  bit  about  her   life.     Her   name  was  Paula 
Mul ler. 

She   lost  her  father   when  she  was  a  baby.     Then  her  mother 
married  a  Norwegian  professor,      and  while  she  was  still   a  child  of 
one  or   two  years,    she  moved  to  Norway.     Her   stepfather  had  a    little 
farm  near  Oslo.     He  was  a  close  friend  of   such   leading  Norwegian 
poets  as    Ibsen,    Bjornsen,   and  Strlndberg,    who  were  guests   In  their 
house.     Unfortunately,    her  father  had  tuberculosis,    and  the 
tuberculosis  was  transferred  to  her  eldest  stepsister.     Then  followed 
three  boys,    who,    strangely  enough,    were  never   Infected  by  this 
Illness  and  who  died  at  advanced  ages.      The  youngest  one   Is  still 
al tve. 

When  the  stepfather  died,  around  1900,  they  moved  back  to 
Hamburg,  but  Paula  didn't  find  any  adequate  job.  She  moved  to 
Berlin,  where  she  found  a  very  small  job  on  the  Unter  den  Linden,  In 


26 

Gans:     a  small    shop  selling  antique  art  objects  and  small    luxury  objectsi 
including  fine  papers.     The  owner  of   the  place»    a  certain  Mr.    Max 
Heppner,    was  a  connoisseur  of   antiquities,    in   particular  Oriental 
objects.      They   soon  added  such  articles*    and  eventually   transferred 
the   luxury   business   into  an  antiquity   business.      Paula  and    I    talked 
about  these  antiquities. 

Now    I    will    talk  about  things  that   I    forgot  to  mention   in  my    last 
i  ntervi  ew. 


Love  for   Art    in  the  Hamburg  Years 


Gans:      It  occurs  to  me  that  earlier    I    had  an   Interest   in  art  and  antiquities. 
When   I   went  to  my  office  in  Hamburg/    I    chose  a   side  road   in  order  to 
be  able  to  cast  a  glance   into  the  gal lery  of  Louis  Bach,    where  modern 
paintings  were  exhibited.      I    still    remember  Bocklin's  work  exhibited 
there,    especially   his   painting  titled.    Island  of   the  Dead,    that  was 
much  discussed  in  Hamburg  papers  and  which  made  a  great  impression 
upon  me. 

On  an  entirely   different   level    was  a  school    comrade  by  the  name 
of  Herbert  Hecht,    whose  father  owned  a   big  building   in  the  city 
f  1 1  led  w  ith   so-cal  I  ed  ant  I  quit!  es.      Once   I   was  all  owed  to  visit  him 
in  this  house.    I   was  much   impressed   by   the  wealth  of    paintings, 
furniture  and  other  objects.      In  retrospect.    I    must  say   this  house 
looked  more   like  a  junk  shop  than  an  art  shop. 

Anyway.    In  my  heart  there  must  have  always  been  an   incl  ination 
for  and  interest  in  art  objects.     And   it  came  forward  only   when    I    saw 
the  treasures  at  the  Glenk   Shop — Mr.   Heppner's   shop.      Mr.    Heppner 
maintained  the  old  luxury  business  name  for  his  firm.      The  shop  was 
always   under  the  name     "Glenk." 


Changing  Lifestyle  and  Trio  to  Paris 


Gans:      I    slowly    learned  the   differences   In  the  quality  of   art  objects.      I 

also  changed  my    lifestyle  entirely.      I    took  a   new   room   near  the  zoo. 
Paula  kept  her  modest  apartment   in  the  Tiergarten  Quarter,    I    crossed 
the  Tiergarten  every   morning,    met  Paula  at  the  station,    and  we  walked 
to  our  respective  business  quarters,   which  took  us  about  three 


27 


Cans:     quarters  of  an  hour.      For   lunch  we  met  at  a  vegetarian  place.      This 

was   convenient,    because  business  hours  started  at  four  o'clock   In  the 
afternoon,    and   lasted  until    about  nine  or  ten  o'clock   in   the  evening 
due  to  the  time  difference  between  our  New  York  firm  and  our  Berl  in 
dcmi ci  I e. 

The  weekends  we  could  spend  together,    and  occasional ly  my 
brother  took  over  my   business  activities. 

Huth:     How  old  were  you  and  Paula  then? 

Gans:      I   was  twenty-five  years  of  age  and  Paula  was  eight  years  older.      The 
difference    In  age    I    really   did  not  real  ize  to  be  the  fact,    because 
the   difference   di dn't  matter. 

In  the  same  year,    1912,    I    made  a  trip  to  Paris,    at  the 
invitation  of  my  younger   brother  who  was  twelve  years  older  than    I. 

Huth:      [laughs]     Your  younger  brother? 

Gans:      Yes. 

Huth:     What  do  you  mean,    "younger   brother  who  was  twelve  years  older"? 

Gans:      My  other  brother   in  Berlin  was  my  elder  brother,    who  was  fifteen 
years  ol der. 

Huth:     Now    I    understand.      This  was  your  younger  older  brother  I 

Gans:     On  this  trip,    It  was  my  ambition  to  show  Paula  what   I   had   learned 
from   her.     So   I    went  about  shopping   in  Paris   in  the  small,    unusual 
places  at  the  Quais,    along  the  River  Seine.     Here,    there  were   small 
boutiques  where  small    dealers  had  their  places  of  business.      When   I 
returned  to  Berlin,    I   was  very  proud  because  Paula  told  me  that  my 
purchases  were  not  very    important,    but  at   least  genuine. 

These  first  two  years  of  our  friendship  were  probably  the 
greatest  of   my    life.      After   that,    the  First  World  War  broke  out,    and 
everything  changed  entirely. 


Wartime  Changes.    1914 


Gans:     My   job  as  a  remissier  changed  because  there  was  no  contact  anymore 
between  Berlin  and  New   York.      Mr.   Heppner,    Paula's   boss,    was  already 
ailing,    and  spent  the  next  two  years   In  the  hospital.      His 
antiquities  business  had  undergone  a  major   change  shortly   before  his 


28 


Gans:      Illness.     The  business  moved  to  a  very    large  rental    space  to  become  a 
luxury   store   located  on  Unter   den  Linden  Street.      All    of   this  was 
under  the  sole  care  of   Paula. 

I    had  a  hearing  deficiency   and  was  called  to  the  army  a  few 
months  after  the  war  began.     For  five  years,   Paula  managed  the  big 
store  alone.     A  few   words  about  the  antiquity   business   in  Berlin 
mi  ght   be   i  n  order. 


The  Antiquity   Business    in  Berl  in 


Gans:     There  were  three   leading  places,    the  Glenk  Shop,    deal  ing  mostly    in 
Oriental    art  objects;  van  Dam,    trading   in  European  porcelain;   and 
Hei  I  bronner's,    dealer    in  fine  old  furniture,    classical,    French   and 
English  pieces  that  were  a  hundred  twenty  or  more  years  old. 
Besides,    there  were  scores  and  scores  of  smal  ler  shops  deal  ing  with 
objects  of   smaller   importance  and  quality.     To  support  his  first- 
class  quality   business,    Mr.   Heppner  made  frequent  trips  to  other 
capital    cities  in  Europe,    where  he  acquired  objects  worthy  of   his 
shop.      It  was  a  great  honor   for   him   to  be  appointed  antiquarian  for 
the  court. 


Mr.    Heppner   died   In  1915,    and  all    the  Glenk  Shop's   business  was  taken 
over   by  Paula   until    the  end  of   the  war.      Paula  had  a  heart  ailment, 
which   was  a  terrible  strain  for   her.     But  with   her  energy,   she 
managed  to  maintain  her  job   until    the  end  of   the  war. 

There  were  no  employees  except  a  janitor.     The  cl  ientele   In 
cluded  people  of  great  importance.     The  emperor  himself  CWIIhelm    II] 
came  once  or  twice.     Other  personal  ities  who  came  were  from  the 
court,    the  police,    the  military,    the  theater,   and   naturally   the 
leading  scholars  from   museums   in  Germany  and  from   neutral    countries. 

I   visited  the  place  as  often  as    I    could.      I   remember   the 
designer,    Faberge,    who  showed  his   latest  creations  there  and  who  told 
about  his   latest  acquisition  of   French   paintings.      There  was  also  a 
Mr.   Hanover  from   Copenhagen  and  the  brothers  Cassierer,    who  were 
renowned  as  art  gallery   catalog  publishers.     One  brother  was  a 
philosopher,    the  other  was  an   industrialist.     They   were  all 
interesting  persons,    and  it  was  a  great  honor  to  have  a  talk  with   Max 
Reinhardt  and  other  well-known  personalities.      Mr.   Heppner  told  an 


29 

Gans:     amusing  anecdote  concerning  one  of   these  collectors.     He  was  a  high 
official    of   the  police*   a  great  connolsseui — and  Kleptoman 
[kleptomaniac!,    or  rather,    a  half-one.     He  took  a   little  porcelain 
figure  standing   In  the  back  of   the  room   and  put   It  In  the  middle  of 
the  room.      At  his  next  visit,    the  figure  was  standing  near  the  exit, 
and  finally,    It  disappeared.      Evidently,    his  conscience  won  out,    and 
the  figure  reappeared  after   six  months  or   so. 


Limited  Military    Service   and  Marrianp.    1914-1918 


Gans:     A   few    months  after   the  beginning  of   the  war,    I   was  inducted  Into  the 
army,   and  Paula  and    I   joined  together   in  marriage,    early   in  1915. 

My   military   duties   lay   mostly    in  the  province  of  Silesia. 
Because  of  my  hearing  difficulties,    I   was  registered   In  the   last 
category  of    reserves  to  be  called.      It  meant  that    I    could  not  serve 
as  a  regular   soldier,    but  only    In  civilian  activities  such  as 
bookkeeping  and  working  with  military   statistics. 

Huth:     How   did  this   change  affect  Paula? 

Gans:     This  meant  that  Paula  and   I    were  able  to  be  together  more  often.      I 
got  a  furlough  every   six  weeks  or  so. 

The  pol  iceman  mentioned  earl  ier  was  Influential.     He  was  able  to 
get  tickets  for   us  for  various  cultural    events.      For  example,    he 
would  telephone  to  the  director  of   the  opera  house,    and  because 
everybody   wanted  something  from  the  police,    he  could  say,    "I    need  two 
tickets."     Through   him   we  could  get  tickets  to  whatever  we  wanted  to 
go  to.     Since  he  was  a  friend  of  ours,    we  only   needed  to  telephone  to 
ask  for   opera  or   play   tickets. 

We  talked  about  the  military   stuff   already,    didn't  we? 

Huth:      Yes.      What  we  didn't  talk  about  was  how   all    of   this  related  to  Paula. 
We   didn't  mention  her  when  we  talked  about  the  military    last  time, 
because  we  were  going  to  talk  about  her   this  time.      It  would  be 
appropriate  to  describe  how   the  military    life  fit   in  with  your 
married  I  if e. 

Gans:      I    remember  another  amusing  story.      Among  the  customers  of  Glenk  were 
a  goodly  number  of  higher  military  men.      I   remember  a  man  whose  name 
I    do  not  want  to  mention  because  he  was  attached  to  the  German 
military   ambassador's  office   In  New   York.     He  needed  the  help  of   a 
certain  soldier   for   some  personal    purpose,    so  he  wrote,    "Please  give 


30 

Gans:     this  man  a  couple  of   days  vacation."     Such  a   letter*    addressed  to  the 
commandant  of   a  battal  ion   in  the  regiment  was  enough  to  get  the  man 
f urloughed. 

Huth:     So  he  had  the  power  to  do  this. 

Gans:     You  can   Imagine  what  happens  when  a   general    writes  to  a  Hfluptman* 
Paula  always  had  a  way  to  important  persons*    so  letters  were 
addressed  to  various  commanders  where   I   served   in  order  to  get 
furloughs   for   me. 

During  the   last  year  or  two  of   the  war,    Paula's  heart  started  to 
give  way,   and  only  with  the  utmost  effort  could  she  carry  on  the 
management  of   the  firm  until    the  end  of   the  war. 

On  the  other  hand,    my  activities  for  the  Blumenstein  Kunst 
[concern] — Blumenstein  was  the  sack  makei — for  the  paper  bag  concern 
I   talked  about  last  time — he  gave  me  a  decent   income,    so  we  could 
I ead  a   decent   I  if e. 

Toward  the  end  of   the  war,    and  through  my  work  for  the  bag 
concern,   we  earned  a  modest  living,   and  we  found  a   decent  apartment 
on  the  Bismarkstrasse    in  Berl  in-Charlottenburg,    a  section  of  Berlin. 
Inflation  had  already   started. 

The  owner  of  the  house  on  Bismarkstrasse,    where  our  apartment 
was   located,   offered  me  the  house  for  sale,   and   I    could  acquire   it  at 
a  reasonable  price.     The  apartment  had  two  bedrooms,   a   dining  room,    a 
living  room,   and  a   library,   and  as  an  added  amenity,   a  room  for 
Paula's  favorite  collection,    art  from  Africa  and  Polynesia. 

## 


At  War1 s  End:  Enter  I  no  Bankina  and  Modern  Art  Col  I ect i  nc 


Gans:     The  First  World  War  ended   in  1918.     About  the  same  time  Paula  gave  up 
her   business  and    I   entered  my  banking   life.     At  this  time,   our 
lifestyle  changed.      Collection,    as  such,    became   less   important.      We 
bought  objects   needed   in  our  household — for   Instance,    here  and  there 
a  piece  of   furniture  or  a  carpet. 

For  Paula  there  was  an  urge  to  get   into  nature,   after  having 
been  tethered  to  her  art  business  for  twenty  or  more  years.     She  took 
trips  to  Switzerland.     She   loved  the  sea,    and  her   favorite  place  was 
the  little  village  of  Keitum  on  the   Island  of   Sy I t,    where  she  bought 
a   little  old  cottage.      Paula's  ailing  heart   left  her   no  peace,    and 


31 

Gans:      there  was   permanent   unrest   In  her   style  of    life.     After   dinner   she 
rented  an  open  cab,    and  ordered  the  driver  to  take  her  through  the 
woods  and  lakes   in  the  neighborhood,    returning  sometimes  after   three 
or    four    hours. 

What  had  been  an   Interest   In  antiquities  and  ancient  art  objects 
from  all   over  the  world  suddenly  changed   into  an   interest   In  modern 
art.      The  art  of   the  Berliner  Seccession  (1915)   became  our   special 
interest.     We  developed  friendships  with  artists  Corinth,    Trubner  and 
Pottner,    and  particularly   with   Em i  I    Pottner,   the  Graph  lea  and 
Keramica    (graphics  and  ceramics  artist). 

The  art  represented  by  the  Brucke  Gal lery   was  favored  by 
connoisseurs.     Herwarth  Wai  den,    the   director  of   the  gallery,   and  his 
wife  befriended  Paula.    I    must  admit  that   I   could  not  follow   her  taste 
for  modern   art. 

Paula  also  joined  the  circle  of  Rene  Sintenls,    whose  charming 
work   in   small   metal    animals   became  the  fashion  at  that  time. 


The  Art  Qb  iect  Col  lection 


Gans:     Considering  our   modest   Income,    we  tried  to  find  a  few   nice  things   In 
small    shops — sometimes  successfully,   and  sometimes  not.     But 
naturally,    all    of   these   little  pieces  could  not  compare  with  the 
treasures  you   could  find  at  the  Glenk  Shop.     We  especially  admired 
one    large  Chinese  vase  at  the  Glenk.      It  still    stands  before  my  eyes 
today — a   blue  K'ang-Hse  vase,    which   Mr.    Heppner  had  priced  at  a 
hundred  and  eighty   marks.     At  that  time,   this  was  quite  unreachable 
for   us.      Mr.   Heppner,    who  had  observed  our   love  for  this  object,    said 
to  me,   "I    will    make  you  a   price  of   a  hundred  and  fifty   marks.     You 
can  pay  me  thirty  marks  every  month."     He  was  a  true  gentleman. 

We  collected   in  periods.     Most  collectors,   trying  to  Improve 
their  collections   in  a  particular   period,    discover  that  the  prices 
rise   in  comparison  with   when  they  began.      Soon  they  are  limited  in 
the  purchases  they  can  afford  and  have  to  change  to  some  other 
collecting  category.     This  was  the  case  for   us   in  connection  with  our 
collections  of   Chinese  art,   and  Greek  and  Roman  classical    art. 

Huth:     Were  these   pieces  you  were  collecting  at  that  time  mainly    large 

pieces?     You  mentioned  the  vase  was  a   large  vase.     Did  the  Chinese 
and  classical    art  objects  tend  to  be  big? 

Gans:     No.     Classical    art   Is  mostly  very   small,   and  valuable  Chinese  art 
pieces  are  always  quite    large. 


32 


Reflections  on  Collecting  Quality   Art  Objects 


Gans:     Daula  was  acquainted  with   a  Dr.   Phllipp  Lederer,    who  was  the  only 

numismatist  and  dealer  in  classical   art  in  Berlin.     Once  he  showed  me 
a  necklace  consisting  of   gold  beads  and  gray    faience*    and  a  pendant 
with  a  little  armor  of  gold.     When  he  told  me  that  this  necklace  was 
made   by   the  Greeks    in  the  third  century  B.C..    I    found   it  difficult  to 
believe.      I    could  not  visualize  that  jewelry   could  survive  thousands 
of   years.      I   purchased   it  as  my   first  Christmas  gift  to  Paula,    and   I 
decided  from  then  on  my  Paula  should  only  wear  jewelry   that  was 
unique.      Any   rich  man  can  acquire  a   diamond  at  the  jewelry  store  that 
weighs  a  karat  more  than  a  diamond  another  man   gives  to  his  wife. 
But  this  Greek  necklace    is  art  that  cannot   be   dupl  icated. 

Naturally.    I   experienced   disappointments.      I    could  find  enough 
necklaces  or  rings,    and  sometimes  even  earrings  that  were  not  too 
delicate,    but  other   kinds  of  objects  that  were  called  "gold  jewelry" 
were   unwearable.      So  we  collected  classical   objects  in  general,    some 
made  of   gold,    but  in  the  main,    glass,    terra-cotta.   or   other   material. 
We  called  our   collection  "general    objects."     In  all    of  Germany,    there 
were  only  four  collectors   in  this  field:  Baura  Schiller,   who  had 
invented  a   glass  machine  with  which  he  made  a   lot  of   money  (he 
preferred   large  gold  objects,    such  as   diadems  and  belts);   Oscar 
Wasserman.    director  of   the  Deutschebank,    a  collector   specializing   in 
the  finest  handicrafts;  a   Mr.  Loeb   in   Munich,   whom    I    never  met;  and 
our   collection  of   unusual    objects.      This  was  how   we  got  started  in 
col lectl  ng. 

it 

I    went   daily   to  my   place  of   business,    the  stock  exchange.      It 
was  a  very  uninteresting  activity,    and  every   word  said  about   It   is 
too  much.     After   the  exchange   closed.    I    went  over   a  bridge   into  the 
so-called  museum  quarter,    bordered  by  one  of   the  oldest   streets   in 
Berlin,    called  Der  Kupf ergraben. 


The  Lederer  Connection  Leads  to  Significant  Collecting 

Gans:     Dr.   Philipp  Lederer  owned  one  of   the  oldest  houses  on  Der 

Kupf  ergraben.    a  house  that   did  not  even  have  a   bathroom.      It  was 
located  opposite  the  Berlin   coin  cabinet  [museum].     When   I  entered 
Lederer's  apartment,    I    always  said,    "Here  comes  the  camel    going   into 
the  oasis.     Please  show    me   something  to  refresh   my   mind." 


33 


Cans:      I  visited  him     often*    but  one  day    twill    never  forget,    a   day  when 
Dr.    Lederer   told  me  a   story,    saying,    "There  was  a  German  professor 
who  loved  Egypt  and  who  went  to  live  In  Egypt  towards  the  end  of   the 
last  century.      He   lived  there  for   at   least  twenty  or   thirty  years,    and 
had  to  return  to  Germany   with   the  outbreak  of   World  War    I    In  1914. 
He   died  a  few   years   later.     Before  his   death,    he  brought  back  many 
things,   among  which  were  two  most  unusual    items,   which  he  offered  to 
sell    to  me.     The  first  object  was  a  set  of   jewelry   for   a   dol  I, 
including  a  miniature  ring  made  of   gold  and  two  of   the  tiniest  of 
earrings,    also  made  of   gold.     The  other   part  of   the  set  was  a 
necklace  made  of   faience  and   golden   links."     Che  shows  picture  of    it] 

Huth:     And  this    Is   Illustrated   in  this  Summa  Gallery   catalog,    isn't   it? 
Gans:      Yes.    That's  an  enlargement  of   the  earrings. 
Huth:      It's  very    beautiful. 

Gans:     Fantastic.      Lederer   said  to  me,    "You  must   dream   about   it."     There 
must  have  been  a  father   or  a   grandfather  who  loved  his   grandchild, 
who  ordered  his  jeweler  to  copy,    in  the  smal  lest  possible  form,    a 
larger   piece  of  jewelry   belonging  to  his   daughter  for   the  child.      The 
jewel  er   di  d  this. 

Huth:      It's  very   beautiful.      The   photograph    doesn't   do  justice   to   it,     I'm 
sure. 

Gans:      I    cannot  give  a   name  to  the  second  piece  he  showed  me  that  day,    but   I 
will    describe   it   later.      It   is  a   story    in    itself.     Now    I    must 
interrupt  my   story   about  the  tiny   objects. 


Much   Later,    in   1940,    in  America;    Confirmation  of  Quality 


Gans:     At  this  point    I    will    tell    about  a  related  conversation    I    had   in  the 
year   1940   with   Miss  Gisela  Richter,    who  was  the  curator  of  the 
Metropolitan  Museum  of  Art  in  New  York  and  recognized  as  one  of   the 
leading  world  authorities  in  jewelry   from   antiquity.      When  she  saw 
the   doll    jewelry,    she   became  very  excited,    she  wanted  to  buy   it,    but 
she  said  my   price  exceeded  the   I  imit  that  a  curator  was  authorized  to 
pay.      "I   must  get  permission  of   my   trustees,"  she   said.      "So   please 
leave   it  here  for  a  couple  of    weeks.     Then    I    will    give  you  a 
decision."     When    I    saw   her  again,    she  made  a   nasty  face,    pointed  her 
pencil    to  her  head,   and  said,   "You  know   what  the  trustees  said  to  me? 
They   said,    'Miss  Richter,    bring  us  red  marble  statues   six  feet  high 
that  everybody   can  see.      These   small    things  are   lost  on  the  museum's 
shelves.'"     And   she   continued,    "This  fellow    should   know    that  there 


34 


Cans:      are  hundreds  of  marble  statues   in  every  museum.     Our  museum   has 

scores  of   them.     But   in  the  whole  world  there   does  not  exist  a  second 
set  of   ancient   doll    jewelry   from  Greece.      I'm    sorry,    I    have  to  give 
them    back   to  you." 


The  Boser  Buben  B^LJj   Paula's  Sudden  Fatal    Illness 


Huth:     You  mentioned  that   in  the  mld-1920's  something  significant  happened 
about  the  same  time  that  you  and  Paula  were   invited  to  a   ball    that 
was  a  big  event   in  Berl  in. 

Gans:     Yes,    In  1925,    I   opened  my   new    firm,   Edward  Gans-Bankgeschaf t»   as  a 
small    business.     Many  old  customers  went  with  me»    which  was 
considered  desirable  by   the  Deutsche  Lander  bank  and   its  new   owner, 
who  wanted  to  do  business  only  with  my  concern.      It  was  an   uneventful 
year    in  every   respect.     But  then  came  the  twentieth  of   February    in 
1926.      We  planned  to  go  to  a   large  fashionable  public  ball,    the  Boser 
Buben  Ball    (nasty   young   boys   ball),   when  Paula  suddenly   said,    "I 
cannot  go.      I   have  too  much   pain."     We  had  no  family   doctor.      We  had 
only  Professor  Hirschfeld,    who  was  a  professor  at  the  Berl  In 
University   and  a  specialist  for  heart   disease.      He   came,    he   said, 
"It's   nothing  special.       Ifs   a   heart  condition.      Take   the   same 
medicine    I    gave  you  the   last  time." 

The  next  morning  she  felt  worse.      I    ca I  led  my    friend,    Dr. 
Ferdinand  Mainzer,    who   immediately  made  the  right   diagnosis,    saying, 
"It's  a  case  of   appendicitis  that  has  to  be  operated  on  at  once." 

It  was  a  Sunday.     No  reliable  surgeon  could  be  found   until    late 
at  night.      At  one  o'clock   in  the  morning,    the  doctors  told  me  the 
surgery  was  a  success,    but  a   perforation  had  already  occurred.      Five 
days   later  Paula  closed  her  eyes  forever. 

it 


Paula's  Special    Philosophy 


Gans:  That  ends  what  I  want  to  tell  about  my  life  with  Paula.  I  want  to 
quote  some  of  her  wonderfully  written  words  but  I  don't  want  to  be 
too  personal . 


35 


Huth:     Let's  put  that   in.      It  sounds   Important. 

Cans:      I    will    read  to  you   i  n  German  and  then   i  n  Engl  ish.     Let  me  quote  only 
a  few   words  from  Paula  which  she  wrote  in  a  book  by  Rudolf  Herzog 
called  Das  Lebensl ied.      [he  reads    in  German] 

Zusammen  marchieren, 

Zusammen  hoffen, 

Zusammen  ertragen, 

urn   einrral,    wann  Oder  wie, 

Zusammen    das   gemeinsame   gluck 

zu  ersiegen,    das   da   kommen  muss!* 

Gans:      Translated    into  English    it  reads»    'Together  march.     Together  hope. 
Together   suffer.      In  order  to  reach   a  goal    when  and  where — In  order 
to  reach  together   the  mutual    happiness  which   soneday  has  to  cone." 

That   is  written   inside  the  cover  of   this  book  she  gave  me  for 
Christmas   in  1916,    when    I   was  SQ  young.      That  was  the   life  of   Paula 
and  one  wonderful    word  from   her.      I   want  to  include  both  of   these 
versions.      That   is  the  true  picture  of   Paula  as   It   still    lives   In  my 
heart  after   al I    these  years. 

. 

Huth:     How    long  was  your  married   life? 

Gans:     Only    fourteen  years.      But    it  still    lives   in  my   memory   after   fifty- 
seven  years. 

With   her   passing,     I   was  alone.      What  to  do  now?  To  continue  life 
as  a  collector  of  antiquities  was  an   impossibility,    because  there  was 
only   one  advisor   and  helper   for   me,    and  that  was  Paula.     Again,    one 
of   the  miracles  of  my    life  happened. 


*  Zu  Weinachten  im   dritten  Kriegsw  inter,    1916.     [Written  at 
Christmas,   Winter,    1916] 


36 

Music.    An  Unusual    Friendship  with   Asva    in   1926.    and  Marriage    In   1 95Q 


Gans:     A  customer  and  a  friend  was  a  Professor  Zulzer.      He   Invited  me  to  a 
little  party*   and  among  the  guests  was  a  Professor  Kreutzer,    a 
Russian,    who  was  one  of   the  three  pianist-teachers  at  the  Hochschule 
fur  Musik.     After   dinner,    a   little  playing  of   cards  was  arranged,    and 
it  happened  that  he  became  my   partner.      Previously    I   mentioned  that   I 
have  always  had  a  special    interest  in  music,    and  so   it  was  natural 
that    I    consider  resuming  my   musical    activities  again.      So    I   asked  Mr. 
Kreutzer,    "Do  you  perhaps  have  a  pupil    who  would  be  able  to  accompany 
me  as    I    take   up  music   in  earnest?" 

The  next   day   he  cal led  to  tel I    me  he  had  talked  to  his  three 
Russian   students,   Tamara,    Vitya,   and  Asya  and  told  them,    "Yesterday    I 
was  at  a   party.      There   I   met  a   banker   who   is  looking  for  a  teacher 
and  an  accompany  I  st.      Is  one  of  you   interested   in  this   position?" 
Naturally   all    three  needed  money,    and  all    three  raised  their   hands. 
Mr.    Kreutzer  made  a  quick  decision,    saying,    "I    think  you,    Asya,    are 
the  right  one.      I   will    give  you  the  address  and  you  can  write  to  Mr. 
Gans."     That  was   it.     Asya   Marshack   became  my   accompany  ist  and,    for 
the  next  two  years,    we  had  a  very    formal    relationship.     Asya  came, 
and  we  played  all    the  classical    literature  together.     This   lasted  two 
years,    until    we  got  closer  and  closer   together.      Up  to  then,    it  had 
always   been  "Mr.    Gans"  and  "Miss   Marshack."     Then   it   became  a   true 
friendship  and  four   years    later    in   1930,   we  married. 

In  1926,    we  made  a  beautiful    trip   by   car   through   the  whole  of 
Germany,    because    I    was  eager  to  show   her  the  beauties  of   this 
country,    which  she,    as  a   student  from  Russia,    naturally   did  not   know. 
We  visited  one  city   after   another,    and  we  had  a    lot  of    luck  on  this 
trip.     We  saw  Cosima,    the  widow  of  Wagner,    in  Beirut,    at  a 
performance  of   Tristan  and   Isolde.      We  sat  next  to  Fritz   Kreisler, 
the  famous  violinist,    in  Heidi  eburg,    at  a  performance  of   "A   Midsummer 
Night's  Dream,"  and  we  were   invited  home  with  him  as  part  of   a  group 
carrying  torches.     Another   day,   we  were   in  Kevelaer  and  there  was   a 
procession,    as   In  the  famous   poem   by   Heine,    'The  Procession  of 
Kevelaer."     Two  years   later  we  were  married. 

Asya  was  a  wonderful    pianist.     Unfortunately   she  had  poor 
eyesight  and,    throughout  her   life   she  was   plagued   by  other  ailments. 
She  was  a  beautiful    woman  and  a   lively  conversationalist.      She 
entertained  well,    and  when  our  child  arrived,    she  was  also  a 
wonderful    mother.      I'll    have  more  to  say   about  that   later. 


Right:   Asya  Cans,  Edward  Cans' 
second  wife,  ca.  1932. 


Below  left: 


Below  right: 


Lydia  Cans,  Edward 
Cans'  daughter,  before 
her  graduation  from 
Hunter  College  in  New 
York,  ca.  1946. 

Lydia  Cans  the  day  of 
her  graduation  with  a 
Ph.D.  in  1978,  with 
her  parents,  Edward 
and  Asya  Cans. 


37 


IV      VALUED  BERLIN   FRIENDSHIPS,    AND  A   PREVIEW    OF  THE  STORY  TO  COME: 
1926  TO  1928 


Meaningful    Friendships 


Cans:      It   i s  of   great   Importance  that   I    speak  about  a  number  of   friends 

during  my   life  in  Berl  in.      They   all    played  a  role   during  my    lifetime 
with  Paula  or  with  Asya. 

I    never  made  friendships  with   people  only   for   business  purposes. 
I   had  a  number  of   close  friends  and    I'll    try  to   describe  my 
relationships  with   them.      There   Is  one  thing  which  was  a  principle — 
never   to  cultivate  any   friendship  for   business  reasons.      With  a  kind 
of    pride*    I    daresay    I    never   invited  anybody    into  my   house  for 
business  reasons,    not  clients,    not  colleagues,    nor  members  of   the 
boards  of   the  various  companies  with  which    I   was  affiliated. 

Huth:      Do  you  think  it  would   be  helpful    if  we   used  your  scrapbook*  that  you 
showed  me  the  other   day? 

Gans:     That    I   will    do  at  the  end,    to  see   if    I    have  forgotten  anything. 


*  The  Edward  Gans  scrapbook   I  s  to  go  to  his  heirs,    until    they   agree 
that    It  should   be   deposited   in  The  Bancroft  Library  as   part  of   the 
supporting  materials  accompanying  his  oral    history. 


38 


Die   drei    Schwaben 
ft 

Cans:      It    Is  too  difficult  to  talk  about  my    friends    in  any   kind  of   order. 

Let  me  first  speak  of   Dr.    Ferdinand  Mainzer.      He  was  a  gynecologist. 
I   will    tell    you  about  him    in  German  first.     He  was  a  member  of   the 
three  Schwaben.      That's   a  German  expression:    "Die   drei    Schwaben." 
Schwaben    is   part  of  Germany.      In  English.     I    believe   It's  Schwabia. 
Maybe  you'll    find  Schwabia   in  the  dictionary.     He  was   born   in 
Stuttgart,    and  he  was  wel  I    known  as  one  of   the  three  Schwaben — "einer 
der   drei   Schwaben." 

Huth:     What   does  Schwaben  mean? 

Gans:     That's  what   I    want  to  explain.     For   a  reason   unknown  to  me,    Schwaben 
is  a  word  used  for  a   large  piece  of    land   in   southern  Germany.     There 
is  a  well-known  German  saying,    'The  Schwaben  are  comfortable,    cold 
but  nice  and  old."     And  then  there   is  a  German   story   with   the   title, 
"Die   drei    Schwaben."      I    don't  know   the  story,    but    I    know   that  there 
is  one.     And  the  title  of   this   story    is  often  applied  to  Mainzer  and 
two  other   people  who  also  were  my   friends.      So  for  this  reason,    I 
don't  want  to  translate   it.      It   is   understandable  for   somebody  who   is 
real  ly    fam  i  I  iar  w  Ith  Germany,      twill   just  say  that  he  was  born   i  n 
Stuttgart,    and  he  was  "einer   der   drei   Schwaben,"  period.      He   is   also 
in  this   scrapbook.      [flips  through   scrapbook]     Here  he   is.      I    cannot 
read  what  Is  printed  here. 

Huth:      It  reads,    "Dr.    Ferdinand  Mainzer,    the   story   of    his   life   is   best  told 
by   Dr.    Frederich  Erxleben's  article  on   page  txo  of   this  scrapbook." 

Gans:     Dr.    Erxleben   does   not   belong  to  these  "drei    Schwaben."     But  he  was  a 
very  famous  Catholic  clergyman.     He  was   in  the  German  army,    and  was 
the  highest  clergyman  of   the  whole  army.      He  was   in  the  trenches  and 
was  wounded  nineteen  times.      Imagine  that.     He  was  a   close  friend  of 
mine. 

The  three  Schwaben  were  described  here.        Thafs  an  article 
written  by   Dr.    Erxleben.      At  one   time,    Theodore  Heuss,    one  of   the 
three  Schwaben,    was  a  high  government  official    of  Germany,    comparable 
to  the  position  Chancellor  Adenauer  held.      That's  why   Dr.    Erxleben 
wrote  especially   about  him. 

Dr.   Erxleben  was  a  Cathol  ic  clergyman.     We  were  very   close 
friends  and  he  honored  me  and  my  wife  by   speaking  at  her  funeral. 
And  Erxleben  wrote  this  article  for   the  seventieth  birthday  of 
Theodore  Heuss.      In   It,    he  mentions  the  friendship  of   the  three 
Schwaben.      I   am   also  mentioned,    because    I    belonged  to  his  circle  of 
friends.     We  played  music  together.     The  article  ends  with   a 
quotation  from  Goethe.      Here  you  can   see  a    little  poem   from  Goethe   in 
Engl  Ish. 


39 
Dr.    Ferdinand  Mainzer:   A  Renaissance  Man 


Gans:     Dr.    Ferdinand  Mainzer  was  one  of   the  three  Schwaben.      In  Berlin,    he 
was  one  of   the  best  known  gynecologists*    a  man  of   great  humor  and 
probably,    from   the  medical    point  of   view,    the   leading  authority. 
When  photography  became  fashionable,    he  was  the  first  to  make 
distance   photography.     For   example,    he  made  renowned  photographs  of 
the  temple   in  Paestum    In   southern    Italy,    from  a   great   distance.      In 
connection  with    it,    he  wrote  a  book  of    little  stories  about  Sicily, 
titled  "Sici  I  la."     The  photograph  of   the  temple  in   Paestum    Is    in  this 
book. 

Another    Important   book  by   Dr.    Mainzer    is  titled  Claudia,    a  book 
that  caused  a  furor   in  Berlin.      It   is  a   book  about  one  of   the  most 
famous  Roman  girls  from  one  of   the  leading  families  in  Rome,    the 
Claudia   family.     She  was  nicknamed,   "the  three-dime  whore,"  meaning 
"prostitute." 

Alfred  Kerr,   the  famous  "malicious"  reviewer,    wrote  a  brilliant 
review   of   this  book.     Then  Mainzer  became  more  and  more  classic  and 
wrote  another   book  entitled.    The  Battle  For   Caesar's  Mantle. 

Huth:      Perhaps  we   should  note   that   in  German   Ifs  Per  Kampf   urn  Caeser's 
£Lbfl. 

Gans:     Another   book   by   Mainzer,   on  Tiberius,    was  written   in  the  Nazi    period, 
and   it  was  never  published. 


Chamber  Music  at  the  House  of   Mainzer 


Gans:     The  house  of   Mainzer  was  a  well    known  house  of  music.     He  had  regular 
chamber  music  sessions   In  his  house.      The  first  viol  in  chairs  were 
occupied  by   friends  and  connections  of   Karl    Flesch,    the  famous 
soloist   in  Germany.     Sometimes  Flesch,    himself,   played  the  first 
violin.      The   second  violin  was   played  by   Dr.    Mainzer,    the  viola  by 
me,    and  the  cello  by  Otto  Mockel.     He  was  probably  the   leading  German 
maker  of    string   instruments. 

Huth:  It  was  an   illustrious   group,    wasn't   it? 

Gans:  Yes. 

Huth:  How   often   did  these  concerts  go  on? 

Gans:  It  was   sometimes  every  Sunday,   and  at  other  times  every  month  or   so. 


Huth 


40 


Huth:     Did  people  cone  to  hear   this? 

Cans:     Once   in  a  while  there  were  guests.     Everything  was  going  on.      If    I 
would  tell   you  about  the  other   things*    I    could  go  on  and  on. 

Famous  guests  were  Invited*    but   I   will    mention  only  one*    and 
this  is  Professor  Robert  Zahn,    who  was  the   third  of   the  three 
Schwaben.      He  was  a   director  of   a  museum    in  Berl  in  and  a   leading 
world  authority  on  everything  classical.      Mainzer,    himself*    could 
form   a  very   fine  col  lection  of  classical    art*    including  numismatic 
collecting,   with   the  help  of   this  friend.     Mainzer  wrote  an  article 
on  the  Athenian   dekadrachm,    which*   although   published  fifty   years 
ago*    is   still   quoted  and  of    importance. 

At  one  evening  concert.    Mainzer   dropped  his  bow. 
While  he  was  playing  the  violin? 

Gans:     Yes.      He  only   said   in  all    quietness*    "I    know   what   it  means.      I   am 
sorry,    this   is  our   last  quartet  evening."     He  recognized   the 
s!  ckness. 

Huth:     What  sickness   did  he  have? 

Gans:     He  never   named  the   illness.     All    he  said  was,   "I    know    what  this 
means."      I    am   sorry  to  say   that  was  our    last  quartet  evening. 

Huth:     So  you  didn't  ever   go  back  again? 

Gans:     Never.      Socially*    we   gave  quartets.      It  was  our    last  quartet-playing 
even!  ng. 

Huth:     Was  he   1  1  I    then  afterwards? 

Gans:     He  had  just  one  kind  of    Illness.     He  could  not  hold  the  bow. 


Malnzer's  Cl  inic,    the  Nazis,    and  His  Later  Years 

Gans:      Mainzer  had  his  own  private  clinic,   together  w  i  th  a  colleague  by   the 
name  of   Dr.   Hollander.      Hence  the  nickname — "cheese  clinic." 

Huth:      Cheese   clinic? 

Gans:     Yes.      Because  of   Hollander   cheese  and  Mainzer   cheese. 

Huth:      [laughs]     Was   Dr.   Hollander   a  friend  of  yours? 


41 

> 

Cans:     Not    Dr.   Hollander  wasn't   Important.      What   did   I    say? 

Huth:     We  just  talked  about  Dr.    Mainzer   not  being  able  to  hold  a  bow   and 

then  you   said  he  had  his  own  clinic.     You  also  mentioned  his   interest 
In  coins.      Did  he  help  you  with  your   coin  collecting? 

Cans:      No.      When   the  Nazis  came,    there  were   difficulties  with   the  clinic. 
Huth:     What  year  would  this  be? 
if 

Cans:      I    don't  want   to  say   the  year   because    I    don't  know   this  part  very 
well,    I'll   just  say,    when   the  Nazis  came,    there  were   difficulties 
with   the  cl  inic  and  when  Mainzer  gave  up  the  viol  In,    he  concentrated 
on  translating  Hesiod  from  Greek   into  German.     Later,    he  had  to   leave 
Germany,    but  he  was  so  wel  I-  known  at  the  American  embassy  that  he 
got  an  honorary  visa  to  come  to  this  country.     He  arrived   in  the 
United  States   in   1938.       He  did  not  fail    to  visit  with  me   In  New   York 
before  he  continued  to  Cal  Ifornia,   where  other  relatives   I  Ived  and 
where  he  closed  his   I  ife, 

Huth:     Were  there  other  friends    in  Berl  in  that  you  want  to  move  on  to? 
Gans:      Yes. 


More  on   Dr.    Lederer   and  Coin  Collecting 


Gans:      In   connection  with    Mainzer    I    will    mention  Dr.   Philipp  Lederer.      I 
spoke  of  him  earlier,    when    I   talked  about  my    life  with  Paula.     He 
helped  us  with   our  jewelry  collecting  and  he  was  a  numismatist.     He 
dealt   not  only    in   coins   but  he  was  also  an  authority    in  archeology. 

Huth:     The  two  fields  go  very   well    together,    don't  they? 

Gans:      Yes.      Coins  were  a  specialty.      I   have  already   described  his  apartment 
on  the  Kupf ergraben,    located  opposite  the  Berl  In  coin  museum,    where 
he  spent  most  of   his  time. 

After  Paula's   death,    jewelry  of   all    kinds  was  out.      That  was 
Paula's   domain.     But  coins  were  a   different  story,    and  now    I    started 
the  serious  collection  of   Roman  coins.      I   was  not  ripe  yet  for  Greek 
coin   collecting,    because    I    had  never   learned  Greek. 


42 


Huth:     Did  you  have  a  knowledge  of  a   language  that  helped  you  with   the  Roman 
coi  ns? 

Gans:     Yes.     They   were  written   in  Latin,   a   language  familiar  to  me.     My 

friendship  with  Dr.  Lederer  became  ever  more  Intime  in  the  year  after 
Paula's  death.  We  made  a  trip  together  to  Scandinavia,  and  later  the 
friendship  with  his  sister  and  niece  continued  here  in  America. 


Friendshio  with   Cleravman  Frederich   Erxleben 


Gans:      I    would   like  to  mention  Professor   Doctor  Frederich  Erxleben.     He  was 
often  an   intimate  guest  at  the  Mainzer  household.     He  was   gracious 
enough   to  extend  his  friendship  to  me,     He  joined  me  occasionally   for 
dinner  and,    when   I  asked  him  to  say   a  few   words  at  Paula's  cremation, 
he  was  forced  to  refuse   because  the  Catholic  faith  prohibits 
attendance  at   such   an  event.      'But,"  he   continued,    "I    will    telephone 
the  cardinal    in  Munich.      Perhaps  he  will    find  a  way   for  me  to 
attend."    He  was  able  to  come  and  speak  a  few   warm  words   but   not  as  a 
representative  of   the  Cathol  ic  faith.      Later,    he  was  pursued  by   the 
Nazis  and  tortured.     After  having  been   promised  that  he  would  be  made 
a  bishop,    he  finally   ended  his   life,    his  health   completely   destroyed, 
as  a  modest  priest   in  a  small   village   in  the  Mosel    area  of   the  Rhine 
country    he   loved  so  much. 


Museum  Director.    Professor  Robert  Zahn 

Gans:     Now    I   will    talk  about  Professor  Robert  Zahn. 
Huth:     Was  he  the  third  of   the  "drei    Schwaben?" 
Gans:     Yes.     The  third  of   the  Schwaben. 

[Interview   16:      July   18,    1984]## 

Huth:     As  we  begin  with  your  recollections  of  Robert  Zahn,    what   do  you 
remember   about  him? 

Gans:     Once  Professor   Robert  Zahn  was  a   guest   for   dinner    in  our   house,    and 
we  spoke  about  leaving  our  Egyptian  jewelry   collection  at  the  museum, 
under  his  supervision.      I   wanted  to  make  a  gift  of   one  piece  to  the 


43 


Gans:     Berlin  antiquar!  urn  museum  and  my  name  appeared  as  a  donor   in  the 
official    publication  for   the  year   1926,    or   1927.      I   was  surprised 
that  he  chose  something  very  modest  appearing.      It  was  a  tiny    little 
bronze  figure.      I    do  not  remember  whether   it  was  a  representation  of 
a   god  or   goddess.      Robert  Zahn   described   it   in  one  of   his 
publications.      It  was  a   piece   done    In  a  mold*   over  which  gold   leaf 
was  hammered  for  a  result   like  these  earrings,      [refers  to  a 
photograph   of    his  Egyptian  earrings]. 

Huth:      For  an  object,   would  that  be   like  these  earrings? 

Gans:      Yes.      Wonderful. 

Huth:     Then  could  we  say   that  these  are  the  earrings? 

Gans:     No»    no,    no!     Now    sixty  years   later,    I    cannot  say  whether   it  was   like 
these  earrings   proper,    or   any  other   figure,    or   a  few   other   pairs  of 
earrings   in  other  museums.     But  for  Professor  Zahn,    it  was  very 
Interesting  and   important,    because   it   illustrated  the  type  of 
workmanship.      [Mr.  Gans  asked  the  interviewer  to  help  him   check  the 
dates  and  names  of    directors  of   the  Berl  in  museum,    from  Zahn's 
directorship   up  to  now.      "Greifenhagen    II" — In   the   description  of    Mr. 
Gans1   jewelry   refers  to  the  name  of   the  man  who  was  once  here  at 
Gans1  home.      He  may  have   been  the  successor  of   Robert  Zahn  at  the 
Berl  in  museum. ]* 

I    heard  that  this  Berl  In  museum   was  very  smart  in  hiding  al  I 
their  precious  things  when  World  War    II    broke  out. 

Huth:     What   did  they   do  with   these  valuable  things  when   it  broke — ? 

Gans:     They   hid  all    the  precious  things   in  the  museum   that  could  be  hidden. 
They   buried  them   somewhere.      When  the  war  ended,    and  the  treasures 
could  be  excavated  again,    it  turned  out  that  the  museums  proper  were 
in  East  Berl  in.    In  the  Russian  zone.      But,    fortunately,    the  artworks 
were  buried  in  the  western  zone.      I   myself  saw   treasures  from   the 
first  Gans  collection   In  this  museum. 

Huth:     The  Berliner  Museum. 

Gans:     And  now    I    look  back  to  the  past.      What    I    want  you  to  do   Is  to  get 

information  on  this  museum,    in  Charl ottenburg,    Ca   section  of  Berlin] 
once  cal  led  the  Berl  iner  Museum.      What  is  it  cal  led  now?      Is   it 
located  now   In  Char  I ottenburg  near   the  Castle  Charl ottenburg?      [they 
look  at  pictures   in  Gans'    scrapbook.] 


*The   interviewer,    through   research    in  Doe  Library,    University   of 
California  at  Berkeley,    was  able  to  confirm   that  Dr.   Greifenhagen 
succeeded  Robert  Zahn  as   director   of   the  museum. 


44 


Huth:     Here  are  three  men   in  a  photograph.     Below   a  note   states  that  one  man 
Is  Dr.   Grei f enhagen. 

Cans:      I    took  that  picture  without  thinking  anything  about  the  future,    when 
I   was    in  Berlin   In  1961.      That  was  over  twenty-one  years  ago.     Okay» 
now   comes  the  story  of   Dr.   Grei  f  enhagen.     Grei  f  enhagen  was  here   in 
Berkeley   with  a  health  problem.     But   in  my   black  scrapbook    I   have  a 
postcard  from  Greifenhagen   in  which  he  thanks  me  profusely   for  a 
second   gift    I   made  to  his  museum.     So,    In  other  words*    that   is  a 
postcard  very   profusely   written — noting  that  this  gift  was 
important — for  the  museum  and  so  on.     So   I    gave  the  first  gift  when    I 
was  the  youngest  of   glvers»    in  1927.    and  then  as  the  oldest  giver,    in 
1966,    or   whenever   the   card  was  written.      On  his  visit  here,    Dr. 
Greifenhagen  expressed  the  request  that   if    I    should  ever   sell    the 
small    gold  earrings,    I    should  offer   them  to  his  museum. 

ft 


Another   Close   Friend,    Kurt  Kruaer 


Gans:      I    must  now   come  to  an  entirely  different  category  of   friends  from 

those  I  have  mentioned  already.  That  is  Kurt  Kruger.  I  said  above  I 
met  him  on  our  first  trip  to  Breslau,  where  we  decided  not  to  buy  the 
bank  in  Silesia.  But  he  was  so  efficient  that  I  insisted  on  bringing 
him  to  our  bank  as  head  of  the  legal  department. 

Huth:     What  was  the   name  of  your   bank  at  this   time? 

Gans:      It's  always  the  same  bank  under  two  names  at  two  different  times. 
Originally,    it  was  the  Koloni  al  bank*    and  after  1920   the  Deutsche 
Landerbank,    when  Kurt  Kruger  was  there.      In  the  Nazi    era*    Kurt 
Kruger,    being  Gentile,    was  able  to  continue  as  an  employee  when   the 
bank  was  taken  over   by   the   I.    G.    FarbenI  ndustrie.      Eventually   he 
obtained  the   second  highest  rank  at  this   institution   in   its   legal 
department.     He  was  a   brilliant   legal    authority,    but  would  never   sell 
his  character  for   personal    advantage. 

Later,    he  was  called  to  Washington  to  be  a  witness  for  the 
United  States   In   its   lawsuit  against  the    I.    G.    Farbenindustri  e.      He 
was  a  witness  for  the  American  government.     At  that  time,    we  were 
I  Ivlng  In  New  York,   and    I   had  an  opportunity  to  see  him  for   the 
last  time.      I    gratefully   acknowledge   his  help  with  my   emigration. 

Huth:     He  helped  you   leave  Germany? 

Gans:     Yes.     He  bought  things  which    I    had  and  arranged  for   the  sale  of    my 
house.      I    gratefully   acknowledge  his  help   In  many  ways. 


45 


Huth:      Is  he   st! I  I    I  iving? 

Cans:     No,    he  died  two  or   ttiree  years  ago.     He  had  one  weak  spot*    and  that 
was  the   ladies,     [laughter]      I    believe  he  would  have  occupied  a  high 
post    in  the  German  government    if   that  had  not  been  the  case.     Perhaps 
he  did  become  a  Nazi    in  the   last   days,    but  that  was  only   in  a  formal 
way.      I    know    for   sure  that  on  the  first  of   May  he  always  traveled  to 
Vienna  or  Budapest   in  order  to  avoid   being  present  at  the  Nazi 
festiv  ities   in  Berl  in. 


Violin   Maker.    Otto   Mockel 


Cans:     Another   close  Berlin  friend  was  Otto  Mockel,    a  cellist.      It  would  be 
ungrateful    if    I   omitted  the  violin  maker  Otto  Mockel.      He  built  a 
violin   for   me  and   inscribed   It,    'Built  by  Otto  Mockel,    Berlin,    after 
the  model    of  Giuseppe  Guarnerius   del   Gesu,    con  amore.    for  Edward 
Cans."     Later,    when  he  died,    the  Berl  in  newspaper  announced  his  death 
by   noting:      ''Germany's   Stradivari  us    died,"  and  at  his   funeral    they 
played  on   instruments  made   by  Otto  Mockel. 


When    I    left  Germany,    I    paid  a   good-bye  visit  to  his   daughter, 
who  asked  me  to  consider  buying  an  Antonius  and  Hieronymus  Amati 
three-quarter   sized  violin,    which   her   father  wanted  me  to  have.     So   I 
bought    i  t. 

Huth:     Were  Antonius  and  Hieronymus  Amati    famous  viol  in  makers? 

Cans:      Yes.     Antonius  and  Hieronymus  Amati    were  said  to  be  the  first  real 

violin  makers.     That  was  around   1600.      I    bought   it  for    its  numismatic 
value.      No  artist   plays  a   three-quarter  violin,    because   it's  too 
small.       It's  only    for   a  child  prodigy,    who  can   play    it   in  their   first 
few  years  when  very   smal  I. 


I m oor tance   of    Friendships 


Gans:      I    have  had  many,    and  currently   have,    a  great  number  of   friends.      Most 
are  Jews,    and  there  are  a  few  Gentiles. 

Huth:     Would  you  have  some  general    comment  to  make  about  the  influence  of 
your  friends  on  your   I  ife,    and  what  they  meant  to  you? 


46 


Cans:      I   have  always  taken  the  word  friendship  very   seriously.      In  fact,    I 
had  only  one  close  friend  as  a  school    friend»    with  whom  the 
connections  for   a  variety   of   reasons   did  not   continue.      He  also   came 
to  America  at  a  very    late   date.      I   visited  him    in  a  hospital    in  the 
state  of  New   York,    where  he   died  soon  thereafter. 

When    I    visited  Germany   again   in  1961  —  it  was  the  day   before  the 
Berlin  wall   was  erected — I  visited  the  cemeteries   in  Berlin  and  also 
in  Hamburg.      There,    on  grave  markers,     I    found  scores  of   names  of 
persons  who  were  close  to  me,    but   I    did  not  find  any    living  friends. 

Huth:      In   1961    you  were   in  your   seventies? 

Gans:     Yes.    In  this  connection,    I    can  add  that    I    now   have  only  one  real 

American  friend.      There  are  a   few   others   in  this  country   that   I   will 
mention    later. 


LookJ  no  Ahead  to  Future    Interviews 


Gans:      In  future   interviews,    I    will    discuss  the  activ  iti  es  of  a  banker  from 
1930  to  1934,   and  our  emigration  to  the  United  States.    I   want  to  have 
it   in  my   mind. 

Huth:     Also,    at  a    later   time,    we  should  talk  some  more  about  your   second 
wife. 

Gans:     Oh  yes,    that  comes.    I   will    begin  with   my    life   in   1930,   because 

businesswi  se,   as  a  stockbroker  from  1926  to  1930,    this  time  period 
was  absolutely   unimportant.      There   is  nothing  to  say.      My   activity 
went  down,    down,    down,    bus!  nessw  i  se.     But  in  banking  circles,     I 
became   important    in  Germany.      The  Reichbank — that   is  like  the  federal 
reserve  here — gave  me  the  right  to  sign  my   name  together  with   the 
others  required.      My   signature  was  the  third  needed  for   the  Reichbank 
to  finance   the   government's  operations.    That's   the  only  German    pride 
I    had. 

The  Depression  was   in  Germany   also,    and  in  Germany   there  was  a 
general   scarcity  of  money.      The  Reichbank   created  more  money  and  had 
only  one  agent.      They    wanted  someone  with   financial    assets  to  be  the 
second  agent.     There  were  not  many  who  were  not   broke,    but    I   was  not 
broke,    and  consequently    I   was  named.      And  when   it  was  necessary   to 
leave  banking,    and   I   told  the  director  of   the  Reichbank,    'Today    I 
sold  my   business,"  he  said,    'How   can  you  take  the   liberty   to  sell 
your   business?    You  are  our  agent,"     I    could  only  answer  him,    "I 
prefer   to  maintain  my    friendships  and   lose  my   business." 


47 


Gans:      This  was  a  turning  point  in  my   life.      It  was  the  close  of   my  German 
activities.      We  made   several    attempts  at  a  second  I  ife  during 
emigration  that  failed.     During  one  period   in    Israel*    I   attemped  to 
found  a  Jewish   musical    publishing  house  with  the  help  of   the  Max 
Warburgs.*     Then  my   brother-in-law    in  the  United  States  said,   "Come 
to  America.      I    give  you  my    word  you  will    find  something."     Nothing 
worked  out  for  a  year.     And  then   came  my   emigration  to  the  United 
States.      That  was  the  beginning  of   my   second   I  ife. 

We  arrived   in  1938,    and    I    started  the  coin   business   in   1939. 
The  year   1938  to  1939  was  a  catastrophe,    financially.      I    was  a 
banker,    and  my  means  of  survival   as  a   banker   is  money — but    I    had  no 
money.      I    came  here  with   three  thousand  dollars.     My   house  and 
everything  in  Berlin  was  taken  over   by   the  Nazis.      My   wife  and    I    gave 
violin  and  piano   lessons.      That  first  year  here,    I   was  the 
representative  for  a  f  i  rm   in  West  Virginia,   and  my   product  was  a 
coffee  machine.      That  was   difficult.      I   am   not  a  salesman.      I   am   a 
buyer.      The  ability   to   buy — that's   my    product.      And    I    couldn't    sell. 
People  want   salesmen  who  can  talk  others   into  buying,    but   I   am  not 
suited   for    that. 

» 

You  have  to  go.      I   am   so  happy   that   I   am    in   good  humor  again. 
Please   keep  me   in  your  thoughts;      it's  so  wonderful    to  talk  with  you. 
And  help  me  decide  how    I    should  talk  about  my    life.      I   do  not  know 
how    I   will    do   it. 

Huth:      I    think  we're   doing  very   well. 

Gans:     But  my   biggest  problem    is  with  my  eyes;    I   cannot  read.      I   will   not  be 
able  to  read  what    I   have  written. 


A  Look  at   the  Storv   of    Numismatic  Fine  Arts 


Gans:     Then  comes  the  most    important  part  of   this  history.      Do  you  have  five 
minutes? 


Huth:      Yes. 


Gans:      I    will    tell    you.      I    founded  Numismatic  Fine  Arts   in  1939.      I    gave  up 
my  coin   business  slowly,    slowly.      I    always  worked  together  with  the 
University  of   California  at  Berkeley  or  UCLA.     There  came  a  fellow 
who   I   thought  could  be  my  successor,    but    I   found  out   in  time  that  he 


*Max  Warburg,    Hamburg  banker,    discussed  on  page  57  of  this  oral 
history. 


48 


Gans:     was  a  cheat  and  a  crook.     Behind  my   back  he  sold  my   business  name, 

"Numismatic  Fine  Arts,"  to  someone  else.     Today   the  buyers  of   my   name 
are  the  biggest  people   In  the  business   in  this  country.      A 
representative  of   that  business  will   visit  with  me  next  week,    If  he 
keeps  his  word.      If   they  agree  that  they   are  really   continuing  my 
business,    Numismatic  Fine  Arts,    they   will   celebrate  their  fiftieth 
anniversary    in  1989.      Then   it   is  as   If    It  continued  In  one   line,    that 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts  goes  on,    and  that    I  am  a  silent  partner   in  the 
new  firm  since  1970,    including  the  last  ten  years,    when   I    devoted  my 
time  and  resources  to  the  work  associated  with  the  gift  of  my 
collection  of   seals  to  the  University  of   California  here.      That  would 
be  wonderful.      By   becoming  a   coin  firm   that  has  existed  for  fifty 
years,    they   are  bigshots.      So   I    think  that  he  w  1 1 1    say   "Yes."      If   he 
agrees,    we  will    have  to  write  an  entirely   new  chapter,    to  include  my 
last  few  years  of  work  as   if   it  were  connected  with  Numismatic  Fine 
Arts. 

If    he  says,    'No, "  we  will    have  no   interest   in  any  continuing 
firm.     Then   I  will   say,  "I   give  up.     Thankyou."     That  Is  the 
question  that  will    be   decided  by   representatives  of   that  firm.     Here 
Is  the  Summa  Gallery  catalog  based  on  their  numismatic  contracts. 
They   have  contracted  to  sell    my   collection.      Here  are  photographs  of 
my  jewelry  and  an  accompanying  story  about   It.*     Have  you  read  the 
story   about  the  jewelry? 

Huth :     Yes,    I   have  a  copy   and   I    read  the  story   about  the  jewelry.      I   also 
looked  at  the   photographs   of    these   beautiful    things.      They're 
gorgeous. 

Gans:     That's  a  million   dollars'    worth. 

Huth:      I  would  think   it  must  be  extremely  valuable. 

Gans:     That's  my    idea.        Now   comes  the  follow   up  with  what   I   am  establ  ishing 
In  California.      Here  in  California    I    sold  the  coin   collection  of    the 
Grand  Duke  George  Michael  ov  itch   of   Russia,    first  cousin  of   the 
Emperor  Alexander    III.     This  was  eventually  purchased  by   the  Duponts 
and  was  given  to  the  Smithsonian    Institution.      That1  s  what   I    have 
done.     So   it   is  an  absolutely   normal    course  for  a  numismatic  firm. 


*'The  Edward  Gans  Collection  of   Ancient  Jewelry,    No.    111-No.    140,"  in 
the  Summa  Gal  leries,    Inc.,    Auction    I    sales  catalog   (Beverly  Hills, 
California)   September   18,    1981.      The  catalog   is   deposited   In  The 
Bancroft  Library  as  part  of    the  supporting  materials  accompanying 
this  oral    history. 


49 


Sane  Thoughts  on  This  History   and  Life's  Miracles 


Gans:     Naturally,   as  to  my  physical    condition  —  I   am   all    and  all    a  healthy 
man»    but    I    have  difficulty    with   hearing.      Soon,    in  further 
treatments,    I   will    see  whether  my  vision  will    be  restored  or   not. 
And   if   not,     I    do  not  know    how    I   can  view   the  edited  versions  and 
proofs  and  all    of    these  things.      But   it  has  to   be    done. 

Huth:     We'  I  I    find  a  way. 

Gans:     And  for   that  reason,    I    must  appeal    to  you  for  your   help,    not  only 

with  your  mind,    but   if  you  allow  me,    I   appeal    to  your  heart  that  you 
feel    what    I    mean.       I    don't  care  whether  you  spell    Jesu  with   a     'G1, 
but   I   appeal    to  you  for  assistance  with  what   I    should  say.      I   was 
never   a  very   rel  igious  man  —  you  can  bel  ieve  me.     But  the  diversity 
and  how   my    life  was  dictated  by   miracles   is  amazing.      Wasn't   it  a 
miracle  that  Kreutzer   sent  Asya?      I    think  that's  a  miracle.      And 
forty-nine  years  we  were  married.     She  was  the  best  comrade  that    I 
could  have  had.      Now   this  oral    history    is  a  very    interesting  event   in 
my   life.      I   remember  that  everything  was  a  miracle.      I    can  tell   you 
all    of    the  stories  about  the  important  events  —  how   close  everything 
was  to  being  a  miracle.     And  believe  me,    I   have  no  idea  about  what   Is 
in  the  many   oral    history   books  that  you  publ  ished. 

Huth:     Well,    there  are  many  volumes.      I    don't  really   know  how   many,    I   have 
heard   there   are   over   five  hundred. 


Gans:      It   is  very    interesting,    because  everything  was   a  miracle.     Why   should 
my   brother   cal  I    me  to  Berl  in?     That  a  Hamburg  boy  became  a  Berl  iner, 
that  is  a  miracle.     And  it  is  miraculous  to  me  that  Paula  and    I    were 
on  the  same  train,    because  we  both  wanted  to  see  our  mothers  at 
Easter.      I   should  have  written  much  more  about  our  visits  to  all    the 
theaters,    and  all    the  many   things  we  did. 

Huth:     We   did  talk  about  how  you   got  many   tickets  to  the  opera. 

Gans:     But  have    I    told  you  that  we  saw    al  I    the  Shakespeare  plays,    all    the 

Schiller   plays.      And   I    couldn't  always   participate,    when,    after   these 
events,    in  the  next   day   or   so,    the  persons  who  played  this  or   that 
role  came  to  the  Glenk  Shop  and  talked  to  my  wife  about  related 
topics.      It  was  one  hundred  percent  true.      That  was  her    life;   that 
was  my    I  if  e,     And  then  when   she  stopped,    I    stopped.      I    bought  a 
castle  that   saved  my    life.      Frederic  the  Great  built  this  castle  for 
a  famous   general    in  the  year   1776,   and   I    bought   it,    but    I    lost   it   in  e 
lawsuit.     There  was  a  swindle  made   in  the  way  the  transfer  was  made 
from  one  party  to  the  other.      It  was  eight  acres  of   land  in  the  city 
of  Berlin.      And   it  saved  my    life!     Otherwise,    if    I   had  still   owned 
it  —  would  you  think  anybody  would   leave  such  a   property? 


50 


Gans:     As  to  my  hearing  problems*   as  soon  as  you  say   a  whole  sentence*    and    I 
miss  one  word*    the  whole  contact   Is   lost.     That's  one  problem.      When 
we  talk  alone  here*    I   can   understand  you  absolutely.      When  you  speak 
with  me  now*    I   can  fol  low   you.     But  as  soon  as  a  car  goes  by  or 
someone  comes   In — It  changes.      It   Is  very,   very   difficult  for  me  to 
read  a  proof.     But  otherwise*    I   am  the  best  proofreader    In  the  world. 
But  a  proofreader,    not  a  hearer.     And  now    In  addition,    I   have  this 
eye  trouble.      It's  too  long  a  story. 

This   Is  a   set  of   books*   four  volumes*   written  by  Natasha 
Borovsky.      She   lives  on  Acacia  Street  here   In  Berkeley.      She  asked  me 
to  read  her  proofs*    and    I    read  these  six  volumes  of   proofs.      I    found 
everything  other  readers  missed.     Proofreader,    yes*    but  with  this 
problem  with  my  eyes   I    don't  see  how  we  can  manage.      That  will    be  a 
big  problem.      I   can't  read  and    I   cannot  follow  what  we  will    write 
together. 

Huth :     We  will    work  around  that. 


51 


> 


V     ENTRY    INTO  NUMISMATICS,    PARTIAL   LIQUIDATION  OF  ART  TREASURES, 

AND  STORIES  ABOUT  RAREST  OBJECTS:    1926  TO  1928 
[Interview  3:     October  3,    1983]#| 


Huth:     We  are  ready  to  begin  our   discussion  of  your  early   coin  collecting, 
your  continuing   Interest   In  small    classical    art  pieces,   and  the 
Impact  of  the  Depression  and  the  Nazis  on  your   life  and  work. 


Moving  From   Classical    Art  Collecting  to  Numismatics; 
Dr.    Lederer's    Influence 


Gans:      It  became  clear  to  me  that  my   collector's   life  had  ended.     But  only 
In  a   limited  way.     For  me,   Paula  was  the  only  authority,   and   I    did 
not  want  to  add  anything  that  was  not  approved  by  her.     But  there  was 
one  exception.     There  was  our  friend,    Dr.   Phlllpp  Lederer,    who  was  a 
numismatist,   and  this   Is  a  science   In  Itself.     He  visited 
universities   In  Germany  and    Italy,   got  his   doctorate,   and  was 
recognized  as  an  authority   all    over  the  world.      But    In  addition,    he 
was  an  honest  man.     When  he  had  any   doubt  about  the  quality  of   a 
piece,    he  had   It  authenticated  by  the  German  authorities.     This  was 
no  problem,   because  their  material   and  numismatic  literature  was 
located  across  the  street  from   his  home,    In  the  state  coin  museum. 

So    I    decided  to  start  collecting  coins,   covering  more  or   less 
the  period  that  my  classical    art  collection  represented.      It  became 
fascinating  for  me,    while,    when   looking  at  the  jewelry,    I   felt 
oppressed. 

Paula   always  used  to  say,    "Artworks  have  to  wander."     I    gave 
away  one  little  bronze  figure  to  a  museum,    a  piece  our  friend, 
Professor  Robert  Zahn,    wanted  to  own.     This  piece  will    play  a  certain 
role  In  something   I   will    discuss   later.      It  was  given  to  the  Berlin 
Museum.      With   this  one  exception,    I   put  the  whole  collection  on 
auction  at  the   leading  Berlin  house,   the  firm  of  Paul    Casslrer  and 
Hugo  Helblng. 


52 


Auction  of   Antiquities  Objects   Collection    in   1928 


Gans:     The  auction  took  place   in  December,   1928.      I   had  made  an  agreement 
with   the  auction  house  that   I   would  have  the  right  to  buy  back  any 
items    I   wanted  to  keep,    as  usual ly   happens   between  auctioneer  and 
seller.      In  retrospect,    I    believe  there  was  a  premonition.     Almost 
everything    I    treasured,    that   is,    objects  made  of   ceramic,    wood,    etc., 
I    let  go.      But  when  any  object  was  made  either   in  part  or  completely 
of   gold,    I    bought   it  back.      There  were,    altogether,    one  hundred 
twenty-five  pieces,    and  after   the  sale    I    still    owned  seventy-five.      I 
did  not  know   these  objects  would  keep  me  and  the  family   alive  many 
decades   later. 

Huth:     Otherwise,    you  might  have  kept  everything? 
Gans:      Yes. 


Soaring  Values  of    Rare  Gold  Objects;    Discovering  the  Usefulness 
of    One  Piece 


Gans:     Here   is  a    I  i st  of   some  of   the  gold  pieces.      In   1978,    some  were  sold. 
You   see,    here    I    sold  fifty   pieces  for  twelve  thousand  dollars,    and 
here   is  one   piece    left  thafs  worth   a  million   dollars — that  piece    is 
the  one    I    said  Robert  Zahn  wanted. 

One  of    the  pieces   I    bought  back  was  described   in  the  Summa 
Gallery   catalog  as   the   "Griff  el  form!  ger    Kettenanhanger."     When    I 
showed  this  object  to  Miss  Gisela  Richter  of   the  Metropol  itan  Museum 
of  Art,    she   said,    "That   is  not  an  Anhanger    [pendant];    it    is   a 
cosmetic  tool,    the  rounded  end  of   which   was  used  to  rub  Koh I    into  the 
eyebrow." 

Huth:     Was  she  right?     Was  that  what   it  was? 

Gans:      That  is  my   story  to  come.      Some  years   later,     I   met  a  German   professor 
who   looked  at   It,    and  he  said,    "I    do  not  believe   it   is  a  cosmetic 
tool    or   pendant.      You  see,    its  other  end   is  crushed.      It  was    used  as 
a   stylus,    a  writing   Instrument." 

Now,    I   had  three  descriptions  of   an  unusual    object,   and    I    became 
really  curious  to  know  what  was  really   right.      There  was  my   friend 
Josef   Ternbach,    in  New   York,    who  was  acknowledged  to  be  the  best  art 
restorer   in  the  country,    and  an  old  friend  of   mine.      I   told  him, 
"Look   here,    the  other   end   is  crushed.      Can  you   bring   it   into   Its 


> 

53 


Cans:     original    shape?"     This  was  a  bagatel le   [simple]   job  for  him.     He  sent 
it  back  after   a  few    days>    and  wrote  to  me  that   it*s  neither     a 
pendant  nor  an  eyebrow    pencil,    nor  a   stylus.     He   decided   it  is  an 
applicator.      He  wrote*    'The  golden  part,    which    I    have  now   opened,    is 
hollow   and   is  about  ten   centimeters   long.      It  could  have   been  filled 
with    some  precious   perfume  applied  by   an  Egyptian  beauty."     There   is 
no  question   in  my  mind,    nor  in  the  minds  of   others    I    showed  it  to, 
that  now  we  had  the  right  solution. 

ft 

And  with    it,     I    come  back  to  my  old  professor  friend,    who  had 
acquired  this  applicator  and  the   doll    jewelry,    perhaps  a  hundred 
years  ago    in  Egypt.     There   is   no  question   in  my   mind  that  only   the 
pharaoh,    or  another  high   personage  at  the  court  could  have  the 
intelligence  and  means  to  order  costly   jewelry    for   a   doll.     And  for 
me  there  is  no  question  that  a   princess  had  ordered  the  golden 
applicator.     The  few    applicators  known  to  exist  are  of   base  metal.      I 
considered   it  to  be  a   good  possibility   that  the   luxury    loving 
Cleopatra  had  once   been  the  real    owner.      Nice   story? 

Huth:     Very   nice.      I    I  i  ke  that. 


Other  Unusual    PI  eces   in  the  Go  I  d  Jewel  rv   Col  I  action 


Cans:     Another    discovery    I    made   concerned  an  "ordinary"  necklace  with   a 

yellowish   colored  glass   bead.     Under   a  magnifying  glass    I    discovered 
a  crack   in  the  glass,    and  underneath   was  a  gold  bead.      So  we  had  here 
a  gold  bead  covered  with  glass.     This   is  something  that  is   known  now 
but  had  not  been   known  for   some  two  thousand  years. 

On  another  necklace  was  a  small    gold  bead  covered  with 
granulated  gold  beads  of    really   unbelievable  small  ness,    that  could 
not  be  imitated  nowadays,    and  which  was  fabricated  originally   by   the 
Etruscans    in  the  fifth   century,    B.C. 

I   will    mention  one  other   story.     There   is  a  type  of   fibula 
cal  led  a   crossbow    fibula,    which  was  usual  ly  made  during  the  period  of 
the  wandering  of   the   people.     We   got   it  from  our  friend.   Professor 
F.    R.   Martin,    and   I    still    preserve  a   piece  of   a  note   from   Paula  where 
she  writes,    "Found  on  the    I  sol  a  San  Bartholomeo."     I    had   never  heard 
of   the    I  sol  a  Bartholomeo  before.      I   somehow   thought  it  was  a  very 
small    island   in  one  of   the  northern    Italian   lakes.      When    I   met  my   old 


54 


Cans:      friend  Ernest  Nash   in  Rome,    he  told  me  that    I    was  mistaken.      In  Rome, 
in  the  Tiber  River,    there   is  a  tiny    island  called    Isola  Tiberna, 
which   is  sometimes  called   I  so  I  a  Barthol  omeo.     On  this   island  there 
existed  a   temple  dedicated  to  Aesculap,    the  god  of    heal  ing,    and  holy 
to  Aesculap   Is  the  serpent.     When,   at  a  time  of   the  migration  of   the 
people,    the  temples  of   the  heathen  gods  were  destroyed,    they   were 
replaced  by  a  church   structure  dedicated  to  a  saint.    Saint 
Barthol  omeo.     The  ruins  of   both   temple  and  church   are  still    preserved 
on  the  island,   and  you   can   see  that  the  same  serpent  that   is  on  my 
f ibul a   is  al so   In  an   i I  I ustration   in  this  book  depicting  the  tempi  e, 
the  bow   of  a  ship  with  a   bull's  head  and  the   snake  of  Aesculap.      The 
holy   serpent  that  adorns  my   fibula  adorns  a  part  of   a  ship,    as 
illustrated   in   Ernest  Nash's   Pictorial    Dictionary  of   Ancient  Rome» 
v.1,   p.  509,   pi.  627  (publ  ished  by   Frederich  A.   Praeger,    N.Y.). 

Huth:      Your  friend  Ernest  Nash   compiled  this,    [looking  at  the   book   by  Nash] 
Cans:     Yes. 

Huth:      Ifs   plate   number  627    In  this   book  publ  ished  by   Praeger   in  New   York, 
in   1961. 

Gans:     The  German  government  considered  this  work  so   important  that  the 

German  text  was  translated  into  English  and    Italian,    and  all    costs 
were  paid  by   the  government. 

For  me,    the  best   in  every    respect   is  the  only  thing   I    want — with 
human   beings,   with   art.     Not  with   eating — I    can  eat  hamburgers,    but 
they   must   be   the  best  hamburgers,      [laughter] 

We  can  speak  about  coins  much   later  when  we  come  to  America. 
That   is  the  most   important   story,    that  comes  at  a   later  time.      Paula 
was  art,   and  with   her   cremation  that  was   done;   now   comes  Asya. 


55 


VI      LIFE  WITH   ASYA,    THE  REICHSBANK  CONNECTION,    THE  NAZIS,    AND 
EMIGRATION   TO  THE  UNITED  STATES:    1929  TO   1938 


Huth:     You've  told  me  how  you  met  and  married  Asya.     The   last  time  we  talked 
about  your   friends   In  Germany,    and  how   they   affected  your    life. 
Today  we  will    get   Into  more  about  your   life  with  Asya. 

Gans:     My    life  with  Asya  started  and  ended  with  music.     BusI  nessw  Ise, 

everybody  still    remembers  the  Crash   In  1929*,    which  was  followed  by 
hard  times   In  Europe    In  the  fol  low  Ing  years.      My  tiny  banking  firm 
suffered   like  the  big  banking  firms,    but  only   In  a  tiny  way.     This 
was  my   good   I uck. 


Important  Affiliation  with   the  Deutsche  Retchsbank   In  the  Nazi    Era 
it 

Gans:      My  only   great  pride   during  all    my   banking  career,    next  to  the 

purchase  of  the  building  on  Unter  den  Linden,    was  that  sometime   In 
1931    the  Deutsche  Relchsbank  publ I  shed  a   notice  that  one  more  dealer 
with  Prlvatdlskonten   (prime  bank  acceptances)   was  required.      (The 
Relchsbank  was  the  equivalent  of   the  Federal    Reserve  Bank  In 
America.)      I   submitted  my  application,   and   It  was  the  only  one  that 
was  accepted.      In  practice,    It  meant  that  when  one   large  bank 
borrowed  a  certain  amount  from  another  bank,    the  Relchsbank  demanded 
a  third  signature   In  order  to  provide  the  requested  money.      It  meant 
In  practice  that  my  signature  was  considered  equal    to  those  of   the 
large   banks.      It  gave  me  considerable  prestige  among   large   Insurance 
companies,    and  for  me,    any  transaction  connected  with  speculation 
ceased  to  exist.     From   a  financial    point  of   view,   the  few   years  until 
the  advent  of  Hitler  were  the  best  of   my    life. 


*Crash    In   1929— bank  failures  at  the  start  of   the  Depression. 


56 


Gans:      Asya  very  quickly   recognized  the  establishment  of    the  Nazi    regime, 

since   she  had   learned  much   from   her  Russian  experience.     She  advised 
me,   "Let's  live  modestly  somewhere  else,    but  not  among  the  Jew- 
beaters."     I   asked  my   friend  Kurt  Kruger,    who  meanwhile  had  a  high 
position  at  the    I.    G.    Farbeni  ndustri  e,    what  he  thought  we  should   do. 
He  replied,    "I    mean   it  to  go  well    with  you.     Leave  Germany,    and   I 
will    help  you  whereever  and  however    I    can."      It  was   good  advice, 
and   I    fol lowed   It. 

To  find  a  buyer  for  my   banking  firm  was  an  easy  affair,    and   I 
still    remember  how    I    informed  the  Reichsbank  of   my    decision.      On  that 
particular   day,    I    left  the  stock  exchange   building  with   Director 
Hoppe  of   the  Reichsbank.      I   told  him   that    I   had  sold  my   business  as 
of   April    1,    1935.      He  grabbed  me  by   the  shoulder   and   in  an  angry   tone 
demanded,   'How  could  you  do  that  without  my  permission?"     I    simply 
replied,   "I    prefer  to   lose  my   business  and  remain  a  good  friend  of 
yours.      And  that   was    it. 


More  on  the  Trip   to    Israel;    Decision  to  Emigrate  to  New   York. 
1955   and    1936 


Gans:     Our   first  try   was   Israel.      In  1935  we  went  to   Israel,    where  Asya's 

brother  and  wife,    both   doctors,    had   lived  since  1932.      Soon  after  our 
arrival    in  Tel    Aviv,   while  standing   in  front  of    a  hotel,    two  cabs 
arrived  with  their  interiors  covered  with  blood.      We  were  told  that 
the  Arabs  had  attacked  a  group  of   cabs  and  killed  a   few    people.      Asya 
cried  out    immediately,   "We    don't   go  to  a   country   where  such   things 
happen.       I    want   to  keep  my   child  al  ive,"     (In  April,    1931,    our   only 
chi Id  had   been   born.) 

Huth:     A   boy   or   a  gi  rl ? 

Gans:     A  girl.     Our  only   daughter. 


Deciding  Not  to  Found  a   Jewish  Music  Publ  ishlng  House 

Gans:     Naturally,    because  of  our  interest  In  music,    most  of   the  people  we 
met   in   Israel    were  musicians.      Al  I    of   a  sudden  the   idea  was  born  to 
found  a  Jewish  musical    publishing  house,    an   idea  that  pleased 
everybody.      There  was  enough   classical    music  and  still    more  classical 
musicians  all   over  the  world.      I    traveled  for  many  weeks,   to  Paris 


Edward  Cans ' s  bank,  the  Deutsche  Landerbank,  Unter  den  Linden  78,  Berlin. 
Erected  in  1920.   Drawing  by  Wilhelm  Wagner,  Berlin,  1932. 


The  music  room  in  Edward  Cans'  home  from  1919  to  1937,  in  the 
Charlottenburg  section  of  Berlin,  ca.  1925. 


57 


Gans:     and  London*    to  establish  connections*    which  was  an  easy  matter.     But 
I    had  to  establ  ish   as  wel  I   connections  with  money»    and  that  was  not 
so  easy.      I    discussed  the  matter  w  i  th  a   banker.    Max  Warburg,    in 
Hamburg,    who  considered  it  important  to  first  settle  a  number  of 
legal   questions.      And   in  this  respect  he  helped  me  with   good  advice. 
But   when   it  came  to  money,    he  said,    "With  German  money  this  can  never 
be  done.      I   will    give  you  an   introduction  to  my   brother,    Paul,    In  New 
York,    and  to  my   nephew,    who   is  very  much   interested  in  music,"    With 
this   connection  established,   Asya  and    I    traveled  for  a  one-month 
visit  to  Am  er  i  ca. 

Huth:      What  year  was   that? 

Gans:      In   1936.     Rabbi    Wise  of   New   York,    and  other  Jewish   clergy   and 

musicians  were  very    interested   in  the  publishing  house   Idea.     Our 
introductory    letter   from   the  Warburgs  was  del  ivered  the  first  day. 
But  we  did  not  get  a  reply  and   invitation,    which  we  eagerly   awaited. 
It  came  the   last   day   of   our  visa.     Naturally   we  could  not  accept  at 
that  late  date,    and  we  had  to   leave  without   getting  started  with  our 
real    project.     But  we  had  success   in   deciding  on  our   future  with  the 
words  of   a  very   close  relative,    Paula's   brother,    who  was  also  a 
brother-in-law    who  was  close  tome.     He  said,    "I   will   give  you  my 
affidavit.      I    will    help  you  as   best   I    can,    but  New   York   is  the  center 
of    the  world,    and  you  will    certainly    find  a   new    life  here."     So  we 
decided  to  come  to  America. 


Final    Weeks    in  Germany:   Late   1936   and    1937 


Gans:     The   last  month   of    1936  and  the  year   1937   were  used  for   liquidations 
of    property    in  Germany,   and  preparations  for  America. 

I    will    mention  here  only  the     hel  p  which  the  Rei  chsbank  gave 
me   in   depositing  an   important  part  of  my   collection   in  London. 

Huth:     Only   the  coin  collection — you  didn't  deposit  the  jewelry    in  London? 

Gans:     Other  valuable  objects  were  already   deposited   in  earlier  years,    but 
permits  were  not  required  then. 

Huth:     Were   those   deposited   in  London,    too? 
Gans:     All    over.      Moneywise,    I    had  no  problems. 


58 


Gans:      Two  things    I    will    tell.      I   only   want  to  mention  a  funny   thing. 

(In  the  book    I    gave  you.    you  will    find  many   things  that   I   will    not 
discuss   in  these   interviews.*)      In  the  very    last   days  of   my   stay    in 
Germany,    I   got  a  visit  from  a  friend  who  wanted  to  say  good-bye,    and 
who  by  chance  brought  an  American  friend  who  was  a   dentist,    a  Dr. 
Sexton.      When  Dr.    Sexton  heard  that   I    had  a   collection  of    jewelry 
that  had  come  from   Dr.   Lederer,    it   did  not   interest  him  at  all.     But 
when    I    mentioned  that  Lederer  had  told  me  that  many  of   the  objects 
came  from  a  Mr.   Mavrogordato,    he  was  wild.     "That  man  was  a   good 
friend  of    my   parents,    and   I    have  to  see  these  things  I"  he  said.      I 
told  him,    "I   am   sorry   that  is   not  possible   now,    but    I    am   sure  you 
will    al  so  go   back  to  Ameri  ca  and  that  you  will    visi  t  me  over   there. " 

In  the   last   days  of   December,   1937,    I    went  to  Copenhagen  and  to 
London  to  collect   deposited  artifacts.     Asya  went  with   our   daughter 
to  Scheven ingen,    a  resort  town  near  The  Hague,    [Holland]   where  we  met 
at  the  house  of   our   friend,    Pel  ix  Tikotin,    on  the  thirtieth  of 
December,    1937.     Tikotin  was  an  old,    good  friend  of  mine.     He  was  the 
major   dealer   in  Japanese  art    I    discussed  earlier,    and  as   I    said,    had 
no  interest   in  China.     With  me  it  was  just  the  opposite,    so  we  could 
always  stay   good  friends.     His  wife  was  pregnant,   and  they   had  asked 
Asya  to  buy   w  indeln   [diapers]  and  other   things  for  a   baby,   expected 
in  a  few   months.     At  the  end  of   the  year,   there  was  a  big  festivity 
at  hi  s  house,   whi  ch  he  cal  led  Unter   den   W  in  del  n.      It  was  a   pi  ay  on 
words:    instead  of  Unter   den  Linden,   Unter   den  Windeln   [under  the 
diapers].     We   danced  nicht   under   den  Linden;   we   danced  under   den 
Windeln.      The  next   day   we  went  to  Paris,    and  then  we  came  to  America. 

[Interview  4:     October  10,    1983]## 

Huth :      Mr.    Gans,    tell    me  a    little  more  about  your   daughter.     Then  perhaps  we 
could   include  a   discussion  of  your   last  visit  with  your   brother,   and 
your   emigration  to  New    York  City,    where  you  began  a  new    life  as  a 
numi  smati  st. 


'  Edward  Gans,    What    I    Remember,   photocopied  transcription  of    lifetime 
recollections,    undated,    with  red  hardcover,    98   pages.      Part  of   the 
materials  accompanying  this  oral    history   deposited  in  The  Bancroft 
Li  brary. 


59 

Concern   and  Preparation   for  Border  Cross!  no 


Cans:     Now    I   will    tell   you  about  our   daughter  Lydia,    who  was   born   in  1931. 
I'll    begin  with   when  she  was  six  years  old.      It  was  for   her  and  for 
my  wife  and  me»    the  first  time     that  we  all   had  crossed  the  German 
border   to  enter   another   country.     My   wife   instructed  our   daughter 
that  when  border  officials  from  the  Nazi    government  entered  the 
railway  car.    she  should  not  make  any  remark  which  could  become 
suspicious.     Our   daughter   behaved  wonderfully.      She  followed  the 
instructions  of    her  mother,    who  had  bribed  her  with  the  promise  of   a 
piece  of   candy   in  America  for  every   time   she  kept  quiet   In  the 
presence    of    an  official. 


Journey   to  Paris  to  Visit  a  Special    Brother 


Cans:     Now   came  the  next  crossing  of  a   border  to  France.      This  was  the  last 
crossing  out  of    the  old  country.      We  arrived   in  Paris  on  the  first  of 
January,    1938.      It  was  to  be  a  farewell,    not  only   from  Europe,    but 
also   upon   leaving  my   brother  and  his  family. 

This  brother  was  the  closest  to  me  of    all    my   family.     He  had 
lived    in  Paris   since   1898,    and  we  had  visited  each   other   frequently. 
During  the  Nazi   era,    he  was  allowed  to  take  a  number  of  valuable 
pieces  from   my   collections  to  Paris.      I   had  deposited  my  musical 
instruments — my  violins  and  certain  jewels  with  him.     All    of   these 
things    I    picked  up  now.     These  were  the  only   valuable  possessions 
that   I   was  able  to  take  to  the  new   country,    since  all    other 
property — real    estate,    stock  shares,    money — had  been  retained  or 
confiscated   by   the  Nazis. 

The  farewel  I    from   my  brother  was  a  very  quiet  one.      We  looked 
into  each  other's  eyes,    knowing  that  we  would  probably   never   see  each 
other   again.      And  so   it  happened,    because  he  died  shortly   thereafter, 
in  October,    1938. 

Huth:     What  was  this  brother's  name? 

Gans:     Robert.     He   died   in  1938   in  his  sixty-third  year. 


60 
Arrival    in  New   York  City    in  January   1958 


Cans:     After   a  quiet  voyage,   we  arrived   in  New   York  on  the  tenth  of   January, 
1938,    a  memorable  date  for   us.      We  got  a  pleasant   impression 
immediately  upon  our  arrival   at  the  customs  house.      When  the  customs 
official    saw    my   four  violins,    etc.,    he  got  the   impression  that  they 
were   being   brought   in   in   place  of   a  money   transfer.     But  then    I 
played  for   him  at  the  customs  house,    and  he  bel  ieved  that   I   was  a 
musician  and  not  a   dealer,      [laughter] 

We  had  a  relative   in  New    York.      He  was  a  step-brother  of   my    late 
wife,    Paula,    and  he  proved  to  be  helpful    in  every   respect.     He   lived 
on  Staten    Island,    and,    after  we  stayed  with  him  a  few   days,    we  found 
a  very  modest,    small    but  comfortable  apartment  of   two  and  a  half 
rooms. 

Huth :      Do  you  remember  his  name? 

Gans:     Waldemar   Mul  ler.     He  was  Norwegian.     He  had  three  children,    a  boy   and 
two   girls,    the  youngest  one   being  about  the   same  age  as  our   daughter. 


61 


VII      NEW   LIFE   AND  CAREER  AS  A  NUMISMATIST   IN  NEW  YORK  CITY:      1938  TO 
1942 


Getting  Started  with  the  Help  of   Friends 


Cans:     We  soon  made  a  few   friends.     There  was  a  doctor  from  Frankfurt  who 

had  arrived  a  year  earlier  who  proved  to  be  a  friend  to  all    Incoming 
Immigrants.      I  also  remember  his  friend*   a  dentist*    whose  daughter 
had  just  married  an  American  teacher.     They  became  our  closest 
friends.     And  after  an   Interruption  of  more  than  a  few  years*    we  met 
them  again — about  thirty  years   later,    In  Berkeley,  together  with 
their  famous  son,    Stevan  Schroeder,    who  has  become  one  of  the  most 
famous  medical    authorities   In  this  country. 

The  German  authorities  had  al lowed  us  to  take  a  few  thousand 
dollars  with  us  (If    I   remember  correctly,    the  sum  was  three  thousand 
dollars.)      So   It  was   Important  to  earn  money   for  our   dally    living. 

Huth:     How  old  were  you  at  that  time? 

Gans:      I   will    mention  that  later.      It  was  no  problem  for  my  wife,    who  was  a 
professional    pianist.      I*    as  a   dilettante,    found  by  chance  one  or  two 
students  of   the  violin.      But  this   latter   was,    of   course,    no 
profession. 

What  could    I    do?     The  merchandise  of  a  banker   Is  money,    and 
money    I    didn't  have.      By   nature    I   am  a  good  buyer,    but  a  very,    very, 
very   poor   salesman.     Office  jobs  were  practically   unavailable  at 
this  time  of  the  Depression,   and  my  few  attempts  as  a  salesman  of 
Insurance  and  similar  endeavors  failed. 


62 

Miraculous   Meeting  with   Coin    Dealer,    Mr.    Metal 


Gans:      The  good  spirits  of  my  wife  kept  me  upright  at  a  time  when   it   seemed 
likely   that  only   a  miracle  could  help.      This  miracle  happened*    and   it 
was  the   strangest  thing,    practically   unbelievable  but  true.     One  nice 
day*    I    got  a  telephone  cal  I    from   the  dentist*    Dr.    Sexton*    who  had 
visited  us  in  Berlin  a  few    days   before  our   departure.     He  reminded  me 
that    I   had  promised  to  show   him  the  classical    jewelry,    part  of   which 
had  once  been  the  property   of   Mr.    Mavrogordato. 


Gans:      I    remembered  his  previous  visit,    of  course*    and   I   was  pleased  to  meet 
him  again.      We  made  an  appointment  for   the   next  Sunday   at  three 
o'clock.      The  Sunday   came*    three  o'clock  came*    but   no  guest.       It  was 
four  o'clock,    and  then   it  was   five  o'clock.      At  five-thirty    the 
doorbell    rang.      A  stranger   was  standing  at  the  door.      He   Introduced 
himself*    saying*    "My   name  is  Julio  Metal.       I    have  had  a  toothache  all 
day.      I  am  a  patient  of  Dr.  Sexton,    and  I   don't  want  to  be 
incapacitated  In  case  the  toothache   should  come  back.      Please  accept 
me  as  your   guest   also."     Which  of   course    I    did.      Dr.    Sexton  arrived 
later. 

It   became  a  very   pleasant  afternoon  and  evening.      Both    guests 
admired  my  jewelry,    and  Mr.    Metal    told  us  about  his  activities  as   a 
real    estate   broker    in  the  heart  of   New    York  City.      Then    I    mentioned, 
just  by  chance,    my  violins  and  my  coins,    and  when   Mr.    Metal    heard  the 
word  "coins",    he  was  absolutely   ecstatic. 

"You  have  coi  ns  al  so!"  he  cri  ed  out.     "I  a  I  so  have  coi  ns.      I 
have  sixty   kilo  of   gold  coins   in  Spain*    ten   kilo  of   gold  coins   in 
Berlin,    and  five   kilo  of   gold  coins   in  Vienna.      For   several    years    I 
was  the  agent  of   the  Bank  of   Spain,    and   I   am  sure   I   bought  some  three 
hundred  million   dollars  worth  of   gold  coins  for   that   bank." 

Then  the  discussion  continued  about  coins,    but    In  my   mind*    all 
of  these  stories  seemed  a   little  mysterious*    since    I   had  never  heard 
anyone   speak  of    gold  coins   in  terns  of   kilograms.     Before  the  guests 
left,    Mr.   Metal    urged  me,   "Let  us   do  something  together  with  our 
coins.      There   Is  certainly   some  possibility   available.      Visit  me  at 
my  office  on  Columbus  Circle.      You  will    always  find  me  there." 


63 

Cans:     At  that  time*    I   had  ajob»    if   it  could  be  called  a  job.      I  was  not 
paid   in  money,    but    I    got  paid  with   a  coffee  machine.      I    still 
remember,    when    I   walked  in  all    despair  along  the  sidewalk  next  to 
Central    Park  on  Central    Park  South.      I    saw   the  round  building  on 
Columbus  Circle,   where  the   strange  Mr.   Metal    had  his  office,   and    I 
thought  a   visit   couldn't   do  any    damage. 

I   entered  the  building.      Then    I    saw   on  the   directory   that  a   Mr. 
Metal    had  not  one  or  two  rooms,    but  eight  or  ten  rooms,    with  several 
firms.     When    I   entered  his  office,   he  rather  joyfully   greeted  me 
with   the  words,    "You  come  at  the  right  moment.     Here  you  see  the 
declaration  from  customs.      My  coins  have  arrived  from  Germany.      They 
will    allow    me  to   import  them   all,    except  for  a  one-dollar  gold  coin. 
I   have  here  another   letter  from  my   son   in  London,    who  wants  me  to 
find  a  job  for   him.      Wouldn't   it  be  a   nice   idea  to  put  our   coins 
together?      My  son  could  join  you  as  a   partner   in  a  new   coin  firm. 
You  can  have  this  empty    room   next-door   to  me,    and  you  don't  need  to 
pay   any   rent  for   it.      I   will    also  give  you  five  thousand  dollars  so 
that  you  have  money    for   the  start-up." 

Huth:      Most  mi raculous  ! 
Gans:     Yes. 


Beainnina  Business   as  a  Numismatist    in   1959 — At  Aoe   Fifty-Two 


Gans:      I    didn't   need  much   thinking.     Now,    here   in  America,    in  a  minute,    the 
decision  was  made  to  make  a  profession  out  of   a  hobby   that    I   had 
enjoyed   for    several    decades   in  Germany. 

In  the  year  1939 — it  was  my  fifty-second  year     of    life — I    became 
a  coin   dealer.     Or  to  use  a  more  favored  word,    I    became  a 
numismatist.     The  trade   in  classical    coins,    in   use  especially   up  to 
the  Middle  Ages  and  a    little  beyond  that,    is   done  by   serious 
scientists  who  call    themselves  numismatists. 


A  New   Partnership:   Numismatic  Fine  Arts 

Gans:      Mr.    Metal   and   I    pondered  about  the  name  of   the   new   firm.      We   used 

"Numismatic"  for   both   of   our   properties  as  the  first  word,    and  "Fine 
Arts,"  thinking  of    my   classical    jewelry,    as  the   second  and  third 
word,    adding  both   our   names. 


64 


Cans:     The  second  task  was  finding  a  heavy   steel    vault.     This  was  no 
problem.      I    found  one  right  away.     More  difficult  to  find  was  a 
mechanic  who  could  make  about  a  hundred  drawers  of   half  an   inch 
height  out  of   steel.      These  had  to  fit   into  the  already   purchased 
vault.     Such   a  man  was  eventually   found.     These   some   ninety    drawers 
were  mounted   into  two  steel    cases  and  fitted  into  the  vault.     This 
part  was  settled.  Next  came  a  stationer  who  could  supply   coverless 
boxes    in  several    sizes  for   each   separate  coin.    Now   came  the  real    job. 
There  were  well   over  a  thousand  of   my   coins  and  another   thousand  of 
Mr.    Metal's — close  to  two  thousand  coins,    altogether. 

Huth:     Were  all    of   these  very   old  coins? 

Gans:     Yes.    They    were  classical*    Greek,    Roman,    etc.,    coins  of    gold,    silver 
and  copper,    the   latter   being  mostly  mine.     Exclusively,    the   gold 
coins    in  all    sizes,    from   the  seventeenth,    eighteenth,    and  nineteenth 
centuries  were  Mr.    Metal's.      For  each  one,    a   description   label    had  to 
be  written,    and  a  file  card  made  out  for   keeping  a  record  of   the 
inventory.      For   this  purpose,     I   engaged  the  help  of    a   friend, 
Theodore  Front,   also  a  recent   immigrant,    to  help  organize  the 
bus!  ness.     He  worked  for  me   perhaps  three  or  four  months  for  very 
modest   pay.     He  soon  found  another   place  where  he  got  a   higher 
salary,   and   later  he  established  a  successful    music   literature 
business.      From   then  on,    for   thirty   or   more  years,    all   of  the  work   in 
the  firm  was   done  by  me.      I   was  my  own  typist,    my  own  office  boy,    and 
my  own  buyer  and  seller.     But    I   always  had  the  invaluable  help  of   my 
wife,    who  shared  everything  with  me. 


Valuable  Connection  with   the  German  Numismatist,    David  Nussbaum 


Gans:     While  busy   with   these  preparations,    a   second  miracle  occurred.     A  Mr. 
David  Nussbaum  appeared.      Mr.  Nussbaum  was  one  of   the  three  owners  of 
the  three   lead!  ng  num  ismati  c  f  irms   In  Germany,    all    located  i  n  the 
city  of   Frankfurt.      About  the  turn  of    the   century,    Frankfurt  was   the 
center  of   the  numismatic  business. 

it 

Huth:     Worldwide  or  just    In  Germany? 

Gans:      In  Germany.     The  firm   of    Mr.   Nussbaum    was  called  L.    L.    Hamburger 
(Ludwig  Leopold  Hamburger,    who,    I    believe,    was  his   father-in-law.) 
Then  he  bought  the  firm   of    the  brothers  Cahn,    which   still    exists   in 
all    Its  glory    in  Switzerland   in  the  second   generation  of   Cahns,   and 
the  f  I  rm  of   Hess. 


65 

Cans:      Mr.   Nussbaum  told  me  at  the  beginning  of   the  Nazi    period  his 

son,    Dr.   Hans  Nussbaum/    had  established  a   branch   office    in  Zurich, 
Switzerland.      I  visited  him  once  and  bought  a  few   coins  from   him. 
David  Nussbaum,    as  an  old  man,    wanted  to  spend  the  rest  of   his  life 
in  Frankfurt.     On  one  of   his  business  trips,    his  son  Hans,    when 
flying  to  Paris,    crashed  with   the  plane,    and  now   the  father  was 
forced  to  take  over   the   business   in  Switzerland.     He   did  not  want  to 
do    it,    because  he  had  a   daughter    in  Los  Angeles  he  wanted  to  be   near. 
He   discussed  the   problem  with   his  old  friend.    Dr.    Philipp  Lederer. 
Dr.   Lederer  recommended  that    I    be   selected  to  take  over  the  stock  and 
sell    it  on  a  commission  basis.     He  recommended  me  warmly  as  having 
been  his  friend  for  many   years. 

In  order   to  facilitate  this  transaction.    Dr.    Lederer   declared 
that  he  was  willing  to  write  a  complete  detailed  catalog  for   all    of 
the   stock.      Mr.    Nussbaum   continued,    'Mere  you  have  the  story    In  nuce 
[in  a   nutshell].      I    want  to   interest  you   in  the  sale  of   the  whole 
collection  on  a  more  than  fair  commission  basis.     And   I   will   grant 
you  this  high  commission,    because    I   want  you  to  sell    my   coins  first, 
and  then  yours."     Natural  ly   this  was  a  wonderful    offer  which    I 
immediately   accepted. 

Subsequently,    Mr.    Lederer  compiled  the  catalog.      Mr.   Nussbaum 
added,    "For   twenty   or  more  years    I   have  had  an  old  friend,    Mr. 
Wormser,    of   the  New   Netherlands  Coin  Company,    and   I    feel    it  my  moral 
obligation  to  make  him   this   offer   first." 

This  was  a   big  disappointment  for  me  because,    to  get  the  stock 
of  one  of   the  leading  European  firms  on  a   commission   basis   is  the 
ideal    of   any    fresh  I  ing   in  the  coin  business.      But  of   course    I    could 
say    nothing  against   it,    because  such  an  offer  from   Mr.  Nussbaum   to 
Mr.    Wormser  was   logical. 

Huth:      So  he  offered   all    of   this  to  Mr.   Wormser? 

Cans:     Yes.     The  next   day   Mr.   Nussbaum   gave  me  a  ring  and  said  that  he  had 

talked  to  Wormser,    but  Mr.   Wormser  had  said,   "The  offer  is 

flattering,    but    I   also  have  material,    and  there   is  very  little 
business.     Give  me  a  week's  time  to  think   it  over." 

Three  days   later,    Mr.    Wormser   died.      Isn't  that  a  miracle — not 
his   death,    but  the  way   things  worked  out? 

Huth:     Yes,    that  was  amazing. 

Cans:     A  contract  was  made   in  an  hour.      Everything  was  cleared.     The  coins 
were  on  their  way  from  Switzerland  to  me,  and  what  was  perhaps  even 
more   important,    the  whole  numismatic   I  ibrary   was  handed  over  to  me. 
The  work  connected  with   Mr.    Metal's  coins  and  my   collection  had  to   be 
repeated  now   with   Mr.    Nussbaum1 s  about  two  thousand  coins. 


66 


Huth:     What  kind  of   coins  were  these? 

Cans:     All    the  same  kind  as  mine.      All    of   this  required  preparatory   work 
that  took  months  to  complete.     During  the  first  year,    there  was 
virtually   no  real    business,    much  to  the  disappointment  of   my   friend 
Metal. 


Closina  the  Partnership  with   Mr.    Metal     In   1 94Q 


Gans:      I    must    insert  here  a   few    words  about   Mr.    Metal's  other   activities. 
He  was  not  happy  with  real   estate  transactions.     He  saw    the  war 
coming,    and  he  nurtured   bigger    Ideas  concerning  the  national 
i  nterest. 

He  bought  a  fur   coat,    traveled  to  Newfoundland,    and  studied 
several    aspects  of   this   island.      After   a  month,    he  returned.      He 
requested  an  audience  with   President  Franklin  D.   Roosevelt,    which   was 
granted.     He  said  to  the   president,    "I   have  two  problems.      First,     I 
see  the  war   coming,    and  for   security   purposes,    the  United  States 
should  buy  the  island  of  Newfoundland  from   Canada.      My   second 
interest   is  to  find  a  way   to  help  the  Jews   in  Germany.     You,    the 
president,    should  come  to  an  arrangement  with  Hitler   and   grant  a 
portion  of    the  United  States  to  the  Jews,    such   as  a   state."     I 
believe  he   named  one  of   the  Dakotas  or  Utah. 

The  president  received  him   very   kindly,    but  as  history   taught   us, 
nothing  came  of    it.      But   Metal's  veneration  for   the    president 
continued.      He  ordered  a  well-known  artist  to  devise  a  medal    in  honor 
of  President  Roosevelt,   which  he   inscribed  with   the  words:     'To  a 
humanitarian."     He   dedicated  a   set    in   platinum,    gold,    silver   and 
bronze  to  the  president.      A   small    number   of    these  medals    in   silver 
and  bronze  are  even  available   in  the  trade. 


Gans:     A  close   friend  of    Mr.    Metal    was  Stadtrat  [town  councilor]  Breitner,    a 
man  who  had  worked  to  rebuild  part  of  Vienna.     At  about  the   same   time 
Mr.   Metal    presented  his  medal    to  President  Roosevelt,   Breitner  and 
Metal   discussed  all    kinds  of   new   plans,    including  where  they   should 
settle.      They    finally    dec!  ded  to  move  to  Cal  Iforni  a. 

Huth:     When   they   discussed   these   new   plans,   what  were  they   for? 


67 


Cans:      For  a   new   city.     That  means  that  Mr.   Metal    gave  up  his   interest   in 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts.      He  accompl  ished  the  separation   in  a  most 
generous  way  and  we   parted  as  friends. 


One  Jicn  mojt  was  reported  to  me  from   Mr.    Metal    at  that  time.     An 
agent  came  to  him  and  offered  him  timber  to  build  a  new  town,    and  he 
repl  ied,    "Do  you  think    I    buy   timber  when   I   am    in  evening  dress?      I 
buy   the  whole  woods." 

That  ends   what    I    have  to  say   about   Metal.      I   had  kept  my   nice. 
cheap,    little  apartment  on  Staten    Island  all    this  time.      Daily, 
during  this   preparatory    work  for  Numismatic  Fine  Arts,    I   traveled  by 
bus,    ferry,  and  subway  to  the  office.      The  word  "daily"  is   not  an 
exaggeration.       I   worked  seven  days  a  week,    learning  numismatics  from 
all    the   books  that  had  arrived  from  Nussbaum. 

There  was  an  additional    positive  factor   at  that  time.      In  New 
York  City,    the  American  Numismatic  Society   (ANS),    was  an   institution 
equal    to  the  coin  cabinets  of   the  British   Museum    in  London,    in  Paris, 
or   in  Berlin.      I   had  already  subscribed  to  a  membership   in  1938,    soon 
after   my    arrival. 

When  the  president  of   ANS,    Mr.    Edgar  T.    Newell,    and  the  curator, 
Mr.   Noe,   heard  of   the  establishment  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts,   they 
promised  their  help.      Later,    I   will    explain  how   they   helped. 


Some  Further  Thoughts  about  the  Storv  to  Cone 


Gans:      My   seals,    collected   in  those  early   days  of   business,   are  now   a 

permanent   loan  to  UC  Berkeley.      With  them,    we  want  to  create  a  new 
discipline.      It  must  be  of   a  suitable  style  for   the  university. 

Now   comes  the  story   about  how    I   first  met  Professor  Wolfgang 
Heimpel,    curator   of   my   collection  of   seals  at  UC  Berkeley.     By 
chance,    I   met  Ann  Kilmer.     She   is  still    associated  with   the 
University  and  was,   at  that  time,    a  young  girl,    and  we  spoke  about  my 
collection.      She  said,    "You   should  meet  my    friend  Heimpel."     So   it's 
about  ten  years  or   longer   that  we  have   been  friends.     The  wonderful 
thing   is  that  everybody   at  the  University — Ann  Kilmer,   Heimpel,   and 
other  professors  are  all    so  happy   with   the  whole   development.      There 
is  no  competition.      There   is  no  unfriendliness. 

Huth:      None  of    the  things  you  run    into   in   business? 

Gans:     No.    None  of    that.       It    is  an  educational    center,    so   it  should  be   nice. 


68 


Huth:   Yes.   Because   i t' s  a   university. 

Gans:     There   is   no  avarice.      They   do  everything  together.      They  are  all 

nice.      In  every  business  there  is  competition,    but  with  me  there  was 
no  competition  for   thirty  years.      I   am  only   a  giver  of   a  new   thing 
with  my   gift  of   seals.      I    am  helping  to  create   something.      That's  the 
idea.      Here  we  give.      It's  all    give. 

Huth:     Yes,    it's  a   different  approach. 

Gans:      It's  all    nice.      And  amusing  things  always  happened  along  the  way. 

Huth:     And  unusual    things,   too.      Your  miracles  came  along  the  way. 

Gans:      I    call    everything  a   miracle.      Later  on,     I    will   tell   you  how    I   got  my 
seals — that  was  also  a  miracle.      My  first  acquisition  of    seals,    my 
second  seals — everything  a  miracle.      My  next  story   will    start  with 
our  move  to — Do  you   know  New   York? 

Huth:     Yes,    I    know   New   York. 

Gans:     We  moved  to  Madison  Avenue.      We  moved  to  the  corner  of  95th  Street, 
into  what  had  been  a   doctor's  apartment  with   two  entrances.      I   wil  I 
tel  I   you  about  a  man  who  drove  by   my  corner   in  order  to  come  to  the 
front  of   his  own  house  on  Fifth  Avenue.     He  was  a  Frenchman,   and  the 
richest  man  In  New  York  City,    who  became  my  regular  customer,   al  I 
because  he  saw   a  new   sign,    "Numismatic"  —he  said  to  himself,    "I   will 
go  and  see  what   it   is."     Everything  was  a  miracle!      I    have  so  much   to 
tel  I  ! 


[Interview  5:     October  31,    1983]## 


Professional    Affiliations  Begin    in  New   York   Citv,    1938 


Gans:      My   passion  for  collecting  remained  unchanged.      A  few  months  after   my 
arrival    in  the  U.S.    in   1938    I   joined  the  Archeologi  cal    Institute  of 
America  and  the  American  Numismatic  Society   (ANS).      The   latter    (ANS) 
had  a  real    museum    in  the  same  style  as  the  great,    leading  European 
societies.       I    also  had  the   privilege  of   meeting  the  ANS   president, 
Mr.    Edward  T.    Newell,    who  on  occasion  showed  me  unusual   coins  or 
collections.     Particularly    impressive  was  an  afternoon  when  he   showed 
me  part  of   a  collection  of   Near  Eastern  seals,    something   I    had  never 
seen   before. 


69 


Cans:      The  Archeologi cal    Institute  of  America  has   branches   in  many 

leading  cities   In  this  country.     When    I   moved  to  Berkeley    in  the 
early   1950's,    the  San   Francisco  branch  held  most  of    its  meetings  at 
the  University   of    California  at  Berkeley    [U.C.]     There  were  usually 
half   a   dozen  meetings   during  the  season*   and  a  special    business 
meeting,    always   in  connection  with  a  lecture  by  scholars,    mostly 
American,    and  others  who  came  from  all    over   the  world. 

At  one  time,    for   the  customary   period  of   two  years,   Professor   W. 
Kendrick  Pritchett  of  U.C.    and    I    were   president  and  vice   president, 
respectively,    of    the  San  Francisco   branch.      These  meetings  were 
usually  very   interesting,    because  one  could  meet  local    as  well    as 
foreign   scholars,    who  were   usually   not  easily   accessible.      But  there 
was  virtually   never  any   business  conducted  at  these  sessions. 

In  New    York   In   1938,    at  the  time   I'm   speaking  about  today,    the 
ANS  had  only  an  occasional    lecture  where  one  could  meet  a  serious 
collector  of   classical    coins.      I    remember  the  first   such   meeting, 
when   Mr.   Newell    spoke  about  the  coins  of   the  Greek   islands,   and  then 
he  asked  another   well-versed  collector   to  continue  this  topic,    that 
person  having  just  returned  from   a  visit  to  all    these   Islands.      This 
was  Professor  Arthur  S.    Dewing,    who,    in  a  humorous  way,    spoke  more 
about  the  different   kinds  of  wines  of   these   islands  than  about  the 
coins  he  saw    and  collected  there.     Mr.   Newell    introduced  me  to  him, 
and  a   kind  of   friendship  was  established.     At  this   point,   we  were 
unaware  that  a   business  connection  would  be   founded   later. 


1940   Move  to  Madison   Avenue  and  95th  Street;    A  Growing  Business 


Cans:      Coming  back  to  the  farewell   with  Mr.   Julio  Metal,    it  became  necessary 
for  me  to  find  a   new    business   location   in  1944.     My   wife  and  I 
decided  that  the  way  our  friend.    Dr.    Philipp  Lederer,    had  conducted 
his  business   In  Berl  in,    was  the  most  practical    and  also  the  least 
expensive  for   us   in  New   York.     We   looked  for  an  apartment,   and  found 
one   that  was  relatively  close  to  the  Metropol  itan  Museum.      It  was  on 
Madison  Avenue  on  the   corner  of  95th  Street.      It  had   been  a    doctor's 
apartment  with   two  entrances,    and  the  rooms   located  at  the  95th 
Street  entrance  were   planned  to  use   in  my   business. 

At  that  time   in  New    York  there  were  scores,    If   not  hundreds  of 
dealers   in  antiquities.     There  were  also   dozens  of   coin   dealers  who 
dealt   in  American  coins.      But  there  was  no  dealer  who  specialized  in 
classical    coins. 


70 


Cans:     As    I    said  earlier,    the  first  year  was  filled  with   preparations. 
A  few    minor   coins  were  sold,    but  that  was  insignificant,    and  the 
first  year  ended  with  a   loss,    due  to  normal    expenses  but   little 
income.     Now    in  1940  the  serious   business  began.     The  first  customer 
was  Mr.  Newell,    who  had  never  before  seen  an  American   dealer  with 
such   a  rich   collection  of  Greek  coins. 

Huth:     Was  he  pleased  by  your   background  and  your   knowledge? 

Cans:      I    had  a  background   in  coins,    but   little  knowledge  of   antiquity.      That 
I   will   mention  later.     He  made  it  a  point  to  come  at  regular 
intervals,    and  when  he  saw   my   collection  of  Roman  gold  coins,    he  was 
very   much    Impressed.     One  result  was  that  he   called  up  a   Mr.   Bliss*, 
who  was  responsible  for  the  Dumbarton  Oaks  col  lection,    to  tel  I    him 
about  my  col  lection. 

Huth:     Was  he  the  curator   at  Dumbarton  Oaks? 

Gans:     No,    the  owner.     He  was  a  former  ambassador.     He  married  a  woman  who 
was  very   rich.    Mr.    Newell    told  Mr.    Bliss  about  the  newly  established 
firm.    Numismatic  Fine  Arts,    which  had  a  wonderful   collection  of  a 
hundred  Roman  gold  coins.      He  recommended  that  Bliss  add  them  to  his 
collection,    the  Byzantine  series.     But  Mr.   Bliss  had  no   interest  at 
that  time,   and  that  business  deal    failed.      It  was  about  this  time 
that  the  tragic  event  of   Mr.    Newel  I's   death  occurred,    and    I    lost  a 
good  customer   and  friend. 


An    Interesting   Friend  and  Customei — Maxime  Velav 


Gans:     As   I   mentioned  earlier,    there  are  miracles   scattered  throughout  my 
life.     Another  one  was  the  following.      It  was  the  start  of    a 
friendship  that  lasted  until    I   moved  to  California — my   friendship 
with   Maxime  Velay.     He  was  a  gentleman  of   taste  who  never  argued 
about  price  and  who  had  a   sense  for  quality.     He  always  wanted  the 
very   best,    and  his   usual    reply   when  he  was  not  completely   satisfied 
was,    "C*est  JA£   peu    fatigue."  meaning:    "Those   coins   are   a    little 
tired." 


*   Robert  Woods  Bliss:     Diplomat;   former   counselor   of   the  U.S.   embassy 
at  Paris,    ambassador  to  Argentina   (1927),    and  co-founder  and 
administrator   of    the  Dumbarton  Oaks  Research  Library   and  Collection, 
Washington,    D. C. 


71 


it 


Gans:     Velay   had  an   unfailing  taste  for  everything  small.      In  his 

collection*    I   saw     Greek  and  Roman  coins*    French  coins*    Renaissance 
medals*    and  small    artwork  of   the  finest  taste  from  every  country. 
Once  In  a  while  he  Invited  me  for  a  cup  of   tea  and  a   look  at  his  new 
acquisitions.      I   believe  95  percent  of   his  collection  came  either 
from   Dr.    Jacob  Hirsch  or  from  me.     Dr.  HIrsch  was  perhaps  the   best- 
known  coin   dealer    in  the  world. 

I    said  before  that  he  always  wanted  the  best.     There  was  one 
exception*    and   I    believe  he  would  still    laugh  about   It.      I   had  a 
beautiful    Sicilian  coin — with   the  usual    head  of  the  nymph  surrounded 
by  four  dolphins.     He  fell    in   love  with  It*   but  that  was  the  only 
coin  he  was   Interested   in.      The  next   day   he  came  back   laughing* 
saying  he  had  seen  exactly   the  same  coin  at   Dr.    HIrsch's   place.      He 
said*    "I    would   I  Ike  to  take  yours  to  compare  the  two  specimens."     The 
following  day  he  came  again  and  said*   "It  Is  the  identical    coin*   the 
same  condition*    but  centered  slightly   differently.     On  your  coin*    the 
end  of   the  tall    of  one   dolphin   Is  missing.      On   Dr.    HIrsch's   specimen* 
the  coin   Is  fully  centered.      But  your   coin  costs  three  hundred 
dollars*    and  Dr.   HIrsch  wants   six  hundred.      To  pay   three  hundred 
dollars    for   a   dolphin's   tall — thafs  too  much   for   me."     [laughter] 
"I'll    take  yours." 


A  Third  Organization;      The  American  Numismatic  Association   (ANA) 


Gans:      I    still    have  to  mention  the  third  coin  organization*    the  American 
Numismatic  Association   (ANA).      It   Is   by   far  the  greatest   but 
Interested  almost  exclusively    In  American  coins. 

My  friend*    Edward  T.   Newell,    was  the  president  of   the  American 
Numismatic  Society,   and  this   Is  the  American  Nunlsmatlc  Association. 

Huth:     Oh,    they're  entirely   different? 

Gans:     Yes.      There  are  scores  of    "daughters"  of   the  ANA.      In  New   York  alone* 
there  was  the  New  York  Numismatic  Association,    the  Brooklyn 
Association  and  another   In  the  Bronx. 

Huth:     Are  they   branches? 


72 


Cans:     Yes.     There  were  branches  all    over  the  country — in  New   York/ 

Brooklyn*    the  Bronx.     There  were  meetings  every  month*    and  Mr.   Newel  I 
paid  them  the  great  honor  of  visiting  a  number  of   these  monthly 
meetings*    speaking  a  few   words  about  classical   coins*    having  most 
probably   In  mind  to  also  Interest  collectors  of  American  coins   In 
foreign  and  ancient  coins. 

I   think  that   I    should  also  mention  a  companion  of  Mr.   Newell. 
Professor  Thomas  Oliver   Mabbott  (he  usually   called  himself  Tom).     He 
was  a  professor   at  Hunter  Collage   In  New   York*    and  an  editor  of  Edgar 
Allen  Poe's  works  for  Harvard  University.      He  had  a   charming 
personality.     He  was  helpful    to  everybody   and   Interested   in  the 
poorest   littlest  ancient  coins.     He  had   limited  means  and  very  often 
made  valuable  discoveries.      I  also  became  a  member  of   some  of  these 
branch  associations*    trying  to  find  customers  for  my    lower-priced 
ancient  coins.     But    I    had   limited  success. 


The  Well    Published  Classical    Jewelry   Exhibitions    and  Personal 
Business  Stvle 


Gans:      I    became  a  friend  of   a  number  of  art  dealers  who  tended  to  look  down 
on  the  coin  trade*   and  they  wanted  me  to  do  something  with  my  other 
collections*   especially   the  jewelry.     My   so-called  exhibition  room 
was  decorated  nicely  with   showcases.      In  November*   1940*   a  great 
exhibition  was  arranged.     The  press  took  much   notice  of    it.      Local 
scholars  and  even  some  from  other  cities — lots  of    interesting 
people  came,    and  the  guest  book   Is  preserved.     Everything  was 
perfect,   except  the  financial   result.     But,    at   least  my   name  became 
somewhat  known. 

Let  me  mention  that   I    I  Ike  everything  smal  I   and  modest.     As   I 
said  earlier.    In  thirty  years*    I    never  had  an  employee.      I   was  my  own 
buyer,    seller,    office  boy,    and  typist.     Only  my  wife  was  my  true 
comrade  and  helper,   always  ready  to  be  at  my   side.      I   have  never 
applied  for   credit  at  any   bank   In  thirty   years,   always  feeling   I 
would  rather  sleep  well    than  eat  well.      In  the  first  ten  years  of   my 
activity    In  New   York.    I    did  not  miss  a  single  day  and  let  only  my   wife 
and  child  have  a   deserved  rest. 

Huth:     You  didn't  take  any   vacations? 

Gans:     No.   I   di  dn»t  take  one  for  ten  years.     From  the  beg  I  nnl  ng,    I  had  a 
relatively    large   Inventory,    which    I  augmented  with  only  occasional 
purchases  through  the  auction   sales  of   Mr.  George  Bauer,   who  once  was 
a  very   rich  and  knowledgeable  collector,    but  now   was  forced  to 
dispose  of  some  material.     He  was   In  Rochester,    New   York.      People  got 
to  know   me  and  came  to  me  when   I   had  something  to  offer. 


73 


More  on   Family   Background 


Gans:      I    will    mention  one  more  person*   my  cousin,    Mrs.  Olga  Blschoff,   for 
whom   I   could  send  my  affidavit  and  thereby    I    saved  her  from 
Hitler's  murder.      She  was  married  to  Legatlonsrat  [legation 
councillor]  Fritz  Blschoff,   of   the  Auswertrlge  amt.     Olga  had  to  get  a 
divorce  on  account  of   Hitler's   laws.      She  came  on  the   last  boat  from 
Europe.      At  first,    she   lived  with   us.      Later  on  she  found   several 
jobs.      She  helped  us  with   the  bringing  up  of   our   daughter,    who   loved 
her  very  much.     She  was  well   educated,    and  In  Germany   she  had  many 
friends   In  modern  German   literature — poets,   etc.     BIshoff   had  promised 
to  marry  her  again  after  the  war— but  he  did  not  keep  his  promise. 
He  married  again   In  Germany.     My  cousin  was  deeply  disappointed,   tried 
to  commit  suicide,    but  was  saved  in  time.      I   mention  this  story 
because   later  on  she  went  to  Cal  Ifornla,    where  she  had  a  number  of 
friends,  and  she  was   Instrumental    In  bringing  us  to  California.     More 
about  that   later. 


Establlshlna  Close  Connections  with   Two  Renowned  Dealers 


Gans:     Working  alone,    there  was  not  much  reason  to  cultivate  business  with 
other   dealers.     And  there  were  only   two  whan    I    saw  regularly. 


Dealer  Jacob  HIrsch 


Gans:     The  first  was  Dr.    Jacob  HIrsch,    who  let  me  have  numismatic  material 
at  very  reasonable  prices  or  for  auction,   which    I   regularly 
conducted.     On  a  consignment  basis  he  also   let  me  have  anything   I 
wanted.      Dr.  HIrsch  was  what  one  can  call    caval  ier— hel  pf  ul 
whenever  the  help  was  deserved,    of  great  knowledge,    and  particularly 
during  his  European  time  he  was   probably   the  greatest   dealer  ever   In 
archeological    material.      In  Europe,    he  had  places  of   business   In 
Munich,   Geneva,   and  Paris.     When  the  war  broke  out,    he  had  his 


74 


Gans:      domicile  In  New  York  City,   at  54th  Street,    In  a  hotel    which    I    believe 
•as  called  the  Hotel    Windsor.     He  had  rented  a   flat  of   a  number  of 
rooms,    and  he  kept  the  finest  and  rarest   Items  there,    not  only   from 
classical    times,    but  also  from  the  Renaissance. 

Huth:     What  kinds  of  things  were  these? 

Gans:     Paintings,    sculptures,    bronzes.     He  was  a  great  scholar  with   a 

tremendous  amount  of  knowledge  In  many  fields—a  "Renaissance  man"  In 
the  best  sense. 


Dealer  Joseph  Brummer 


Gans:     The  other   dealer    I   saw   regularly  was  Mr.    Joseph  Brummer.     He  was  an 
entirely  different  type  person.     At  57th  Street   in  New   York  City  he 
had   built  a  huge  building  for  his  treasures.      He  had  once  visited 
with  me  In  Germany  some  twenty  years  earlier,   and  the  friendship  was 
soon  re-established.     He  used  to  call    me  to  Invite  me  for  a  glass  of 
wine  In  the  evening.     We  sat  In  his  basement,    where  he  cleaned 
certain  antiquities  with   a  toothpick  and  water.     He  would  tell   stories 
about  former  business  dealings,    such  as  what  he  had   done  with  Hearst, 
that  he  had  just  bought  one  room   filled  with   antiquities  from  a  "Mrs. 
Walter"  in  Baltimore,   or  about  his  purchase  of  a  Mexican  jade  mask. 
Finally,    one  evening,    he  asked  me  whether  we  could  do  business 
together.      I    knew   that  classical    things  were  not  for  Brummer.     But 
what  did   I    have  that  was  unusual?     One  thing  came  to  mind.      It  was  a 
Germanic  gold  jewel,    perhaps  a  fragment  from  a  bracelet.     And  the 
Interesting  part   Is  that   It  was  published  as  the   last   Item    In  M. 
Rosenberg's   book,    Geschichte   der  Go  I dschmledekunst  «uf   Technlscher 
Grundlage.      I    bought  the  piece  from    a  Dr.    P.    R.    Martin,    of   Setlgnano, 
near  Florence. 

Huth:     Was  that  documentation  many  years  before  you  had  bought  that  piece? 
Gans:     Oh  yes,    twenty  or  thirty  years. 

Brummer  was   Interested  and  he  offered  me,    as  an  exchange,    a  pair 
of   gold  Greek  earrings  as  they  appear  on  a  certain  Syracusan 
Tetradrachm  NOW    In  the  museum    In  Seattle,   as  the  gift  from  Norman 
Davis.     More  about  him  later. 

II 


75 


Gans:      In  addition,    he  offered  me  a  beautiful    Etruscan   fibula,    which   Is  now 
In  the  Cleveland  Museum.     Brummer   looked  at  me,    and  noted  that  my 
face  looked  sad.     He  asked  me,    "Isn't   It  enough?"     And    I    had  to 
reply,    "I    need  money."     "Okay,"  he  said,    "I    will    add  five  hundred 
dollars."     And    I   was  the  happiest  man. 

Brummer   had  a  wonderful    feel  Ing  for  art.      He  had  a  feel  Ing  In 
his  fingertips  for  art.     Numerous   unusual    pieces   In  American  museums, 
we  owe  to  him.     At  Brummer's  auction,   after  his  death,   the  fibula  was 
bought  by  Mr.   Melvln  Gutman. 

Huth:     How  much  of   Mr.    Brummer's  collection  did  Mr.   Gutman  buy? 

Gans:     There  are  three  volumes   listing  the  collection.     But  Gutman  only 
bought  the  fibula.      Gutman   collected  only   Jewelry.     This  piece 
reappeared  at  the  sale  of   Melvln  Gutman  at  Parke-Bernet  Galleries  on 
December  5,    1969,    as  Number   159. 


Friendship  with  Art  Restorer,    Joseph  Ternbach 

Gans:      I    owe  to  Brummer  one  more  of   my  friends — Joseph  Ternbach.     Ternbach 

was  a  medalist  In  Vienna.      In  New   York  he  became  an  art  restorer,   and 
he  always  stressed  the  fact  that  It  was  Brummer  who  taught  him  how  to 
do  repairs.      I    believe  he  was  the  best  known  authority    In  his  field 
and  he  also  became  a   benefactor   for  the  museum   at  Queen's  College. 
Actually,    I  met  Ternbach  much  earlier,    but   I  mention  him  here   In 
connection  with  Brummer   because  he  spoke  about  him  so  much. 


Move  to   101    West  55th   Street.    Tenth    Floor.    In    1942 


Gans:      In  retrospect,    I   cannot  complain  about  the  start  of   my   business  at 
Madison  Avenue.     But  my   family  complained  bitterly.      It  was   dark, 
dul I    and  dirty. 

Huth:     You  mean  the  area  where  you   I Ived? 

Gans:     Yes.      The  whole  neighborhood  was   unattractive.      I    think  after  a  year 
and  a  half  or  two,    we  moved  farther  up  to  101    West  55th  Street,    In 
the  fall   of  1942.      It  was  wonderful    for  my  wife,    because  now   we   lived 
between  Carnegie  Hall    and  Radio  City   Music  Hall,   and  my   daughter's 
school   was  only  a  few   blocks  away.      It  was  a  modern   building.      The 


76 


Gans:     apartment  was  on  the  tenth  floor.     We  had  a  beautiful    view 

overlooking  Central    Park*    and  nobody   could  visit  me  without  being 
announced  by   the  porter.      The  house  was  as  elegant  as  any  of  the  good 
hotels*    and  the  price  was  tolerable. 

Huth:     You   didn't  have  two  entrances  any    longer,    then? 
Gans:     No.      One  entrance. 


The   1942  Letter  on  Numismatics  to  Universities.    Colleaes»    and  Museums 


Gans:     Would  you  please  read  that?      It  Is  a   letter  that  was   Important  for  my 
bus) ness. 

Huth:      [reading]     Honored  member  of   the  faculty,    you  are  aware  of  the  close 
connection  between  numismatics  and  your  particular  branch  of 
learning.      Is  your  field  art,    history,    theology,    mythology, 
architecture,    botany,   zoology,    law,   medicine,   economics?"     You  had 
some  connection  that  you  made  with  all    those  fields   In  your    letter? 

Gans:      [laughs]     That  was  my   greatest  success,    this   letter. 

Huth:     You  said  here,    "We  have  chosen  just  a  few   examples  to  show   the  close 
connection  between  numismatics  and  practically  every  science  or 
branch   of   our   daily    life.    To  facilitate  a   selection  for  building  up  a 
school    collection,   or  for  any  purpose  whatsoever,   we  have   decided  to 
make   a  catalog  of  our    large  stock.      Part  one  of    it   is  just   Issued, 
and  we  are  sending  It  free  of   charge  to  anybody   upon  request.      For 
further    information  contact  Numismatic  Fine  Arts,    Edward  Gans."     And 
your  address  was  30  East  95th  Street  at  that  time — May,   1942.     The 
letter  was  sent  to  universities? 

Gans:     All    universities. 
Huth:     Only    In  New   York? 

Gans       All   over  America.      It  would  have  been  wise,    had   I   announced  my  move 
In   that    letter. 

Huth:     But  you  didn't. 

Gans:     No. 

Huth:     You  moved  about  that  time  to  55th  Street? 


NUM  ISM  ATI  C 
FINE     ARTS 

EDWARD  CANS 


76a 


May,  1942 


Honored  member  of  the  faculty: 


Are  you  aware  of  the  close  connection  "between  Numismatics  and 
your  particular  branch  of  learning? 

Is  your  field: 

Art?         The  great  creations  of  die  cutters  like  Euainetos,  Kimon, 

Phrygillos  and  others  are  masterworks  in  themselves.  Greek 
coins  of  Athens,  Elis  and  many  other  cities  as  well  as  Roman 
coins  show  masterworks  of  sculpture  known  only  by  these  coins. 

History?      The  precision  of  chronological,  geographical  and  linguistic 
knowledge  rendered  by  numismatics  is  an  invaluable  help  for 
history.  Sometimes  coins  are  the  only  proof  of  the  existence 
of  certain  emperors.  The  12  Caesars,  indeed  the  portraits  of 
practically  all  Roman  and  Byzantine  emperors  are  splendidly 
illustrated  on  coins. 

Theology?     The  coins  of  the  Bible,  the  portraits  of  Christ  and  the  Apostles 
and  other  scenes  are  graphically  presented. 

Mythology?    All  the  gods  and  goddesses  of  the  Olympos  as  well  as  the  heroes, 
nymphs,  muses,  monsters,  etc.,  are  found  on  coins'. 

Architecture?  We  find  the  labyrinth  and  the  temples,  the  statues  and  bridges, 
arches  and  herms  on  numerous  Roman  coins. 

Botany  &      All  kinds  of  plants  and  animals  are  depicted  on  Greek  and  Roman 
Zoology?      coins  and  interesting  books  and  pamphlets  are  written  on  this 
subject. 

Law  and       Numerous  allusions  to  these  important  sciences  are  found  on 
Medicine?     coins,  as  for  instance  voting  scenes  or  pictures  of  Asklepios 

and  Hygieia.  Thousands  of  medals  exist  with  portraits  of 

famous  scholars  from  all  periods. 

Economics?    The  huge  series  of  Roman  gold  and  silver  coins  teaches  us 

strikingly  the  "inflation"  of  the  first  centuries  of  our  era. 
The  first  coinages  were  of  full  weight;  soon  started  a  diminu 
tion  which  was  later  on  accompanied  by  a  debasement  of  precious 
metal.  Finally  the  coins  contained  only  a  small  percentage  of 
precious  metal  at  all,  the  weight  was  reduced  and  even  the  art 
is  not  worth  mentioning. 

We  have  chosen  just  a  few  examples  to  show  the  close  connection  between 
numismatics  and  practically  every  science  or  branch  of  our  daily  life. 
To  facilitate  a  selection  for  building  up  a  school  collection  or  for 
any  purpose  whatsoever,  we  have  decided  to  make  a  catalogue  of  our 
large  stock.  Part  I  of  it  is  just  issued  and  we  are  sending  it  free  of 
charge  to  anybody  upon  request. 
Any  further  information  or  suggestions  will  gladly  be  furnished. 

Very  truly  yours, 

NUMISMATIC  FINE  ARTS 
EDWARD  GANS. 


77 

Gans:      I  was  there  on  95th  Street  for   two  more  months.      The  necessity  of 
the  move  was  dictated  by  a  business  fact,    In  May  of   1942. 

Huth:      You  moved   In  the  fall    of   1942? 

Gans:     Yes.     And  In  May  of   1942    I   sent  this  circular   letter  to  a  great 

number  of   universities,   colleges,   and  museums  all    over  the  country. 
I   advertised  the  necessity  of   showing  coins,   because  coins  are 
related  to  so  many   different  fields.     And  from  then  on,   the  real 
business  started.      It  will    not  be  necessary  to  write  about  particular 
business  deals,    but  what   I  will   say  about  my  friendship  with  faculty 
members  and  future  faculty  members  will    follow   later. 

[Interview  6:   November  7,    1983]  it 


Good  Response  to  the  Circular  Letter 

Gans:      I   have  reported  about  the  preliminaries,    but  the  real    business 

activity   comes  now.      I   remember  the  Hamburg  lesson:     The  ability  of  a 
merchant  Is  measured  by  the  fact  that  he  does  not  fill    needs,    but 
that  he  has  to  create  needs.     My   purpose  was  not  to  fill    the  needs  of 
any   ordinary   person.     My  appeal    went  to   learning   Institutions  and  the 
people  around  them.     As   I   said  earlier,    I   sent  a  circular   letter 
addressed  to  universities  and  museums,    stressing  the  many  connections 
their  professions  have  with   what  we  encounter  on  and  with  coins. 
First  of   all,    the  economic  and  historical    connections.     But  then  come 
so  many   other   connecting  points:   art,    art  objects,    botanical,    animal, 
and  so  on. 

And   I    daresay  that  the  response  was  remarkable.      I  was  able  to 
make  many  contacts  with  professors  and  teachers  at  universities, 
colleges,    and  high   schools,    who  borrowed  coins  for  their  teaching 
projects,   and  eventually  they  could  establish  funds  for  forming  new 
collections  for   their   Institutions. 

A  consequence  of   this  was  that  the  collecting  spirit  that  exists 
naturally    In   students'   minds   brought  some  of   the  younger  generation 
to  my   place.      I    liked  to  talk  with  young  people,    and  they    In  turn 
started  further  accumulations,   too. 

One  point   I    stressed  from   the  beginning:   "When  you  pay  me  five 
dollars  for  a  coin,    do  not  think  that  you  pay    It  for  the  coin  as 
such.      In  reality,   you  paid  me  only  one   dollar   for  the  coin  and  four 
dollars  for  the  accompanying  label,    because  of   the  knowledge  you 
picked  up  with  your   purchase,    which  you  find  expressed  on  the  label 
paper.      That   is  what  counts   In  reality." 


78 


Establishing  a  Connection  w  1 th    Istanbul    Dealers   for  Valuable 
Materials    In    1942 


Cans:      It  was  strange — at  about  the  same  time  that   I   real  ly  started  doing  a 
good  business*    another  connection  was  established,      I   really   do  not 
know   how    It  came  about.      I   made  the  acquaintance*    by   way  of 
correspondence*    with  a  Turkish  dealer  In   Istanbul*    who  offered  me 
lots.      I   could  buy   hundreds  of   practically    Identical    or   similar 
coins*    from   localities  such  as  Tarsus*    Persia*   Aspendus*   and  many 
other  places.     Besides*    from  friends   I   also  got  coins  from   such 
European  places  as  Athens  and  Sicily.      I   will    mention  more  about  that 
later.     This  was  the  time  of  World  War    II   and  shortly  after. 

In  those  countries*    they   all    wanted  dollars.     Practically  all    my 
colleagues  were   interested   In  American  coins*    and  these   lots  were 
priced  at  a  few  dollars  each.      This  made  it  possible  for  me  to  have 
more  sellers  and  collectors. 

Huth:     Was  this  about  the  time  you  wrote  that  circular   letter? 
Cans:     Yes*    this  was  all    about  the  same  time,    about  1942. 

Huth:     So  this  Is  where  you   got  a   lot  of   the  coins  that  you  could  use  for 
these   new   university   and  college  connections. 

Gans:     Yes.     While    I   will    try  to  refrain  from   using  numbers*    I'll   just 
mention  something   I    find  humorous  now.      I  once  bought  a   lot 
consisting  of  many  coins  from  Persia  and  Croesus  at  a   price  of    less 
than  one  dollar*    and  some  from   the  Sasanians  for  even   less. 


79 


VIII      EXPANDING    IN  NUMISMATICS  THROUGH   CONTACTS  WITH  SCHOLARS: 
1942  TO  1951 


Gans:     As  far  as  my   memory   permits  today   (I'm  speaking  of  a  time  forty  years 
ago  and  more),    I   remember  conversations  with  scholars  that  took  place 
from   time  to  time.      I    learned  from  them  and  now    I   had  new   tasks  that 
I   tried  to  fulfill. 

Connection  with   Dr.    Karl    Lehmann-Hartl eben 


Gans:     For    Instance,    there  was  Dr.   Karl    Lehmann-Hartl eben.     He  was  the 
excavator  of  Samothrace,    where  the  Temple  of  the  Dioscuri    was 
located. 

Huth:      [reading]     "The  seat  of   the  famous  mysteries  of   the  Kabirl.     The 
coins  of   this    island  seem  to  be  all    subsequent  to  the   death  of 
Lysimachus.M 

Gans:      It  was  a  fun  task  for  me  to  locate,    here  and  there,    specimens  from 

this   island,    and    I   admired  Professor  Lehmann's  energy  to  secure,    not 
only   payments  for   what   I    could  offer  him,    but  also  his  zeal    In 
searching  for   artifacts  that  had  been   sold  and  taken  from  the   island. 

ft 

Gans:     Each  and  every   specimen    I    located  was  restituted  to  the  Island  of 

Samothrace,    where  they  found  a  place  In  the   local    museum.      Professor 
Lehmann  belonged  to  the  avant  garde  of   scholars  who  wanted  to  be 
certain  that  art  works  were  preserved  where  they  were  created,    a 
fight  that  has  continued  to  this  day   with  growing  energy,    and  will 
continue  for  many  years  to  come. 


80 


Gans:      I   feel    eventually  a  consensus  will    be  found*    and  my  personal 

attitude   Is  that   learning   Institutions  deserve  the  vorrang     [come 
first]*   and  museums  should  be  considered  when   beauty  and  size  of 
Items  meet  their  demands.     Unfortunately*   Dr.  Lehmann  passed  away  at 
an  early   date.      I    believe  Mrs.   Lehmann   Is  still    teaching  at  a 
university    In  the  East. 


Another   Friend.    Scholar   David  M.    Robinson 


Gans:      Another   scholar*    whom    I    believe   I   can  count  among  my  friends*    was 
Professor  David  M.    Robinson  from  Johns  Hopkins  University.      He 
excavated  Olynthus*    Macedonia     [shows  copy  of  Robinson's   book.      See 
D.    M.    Robinson*    Excavations  at  Qlynthusl.      I    don't  have   his  other 
book,    which  he  has  written  together  with  his  partner — Jones  and 
Robi  nson. 

Huth:      This   second  book    Is  titled  The  Manual    of  Greek  Numismatics. 

Gans:     He  liked  to  acquire  any   available  specimens  of   coins  for  his  personal 
collection.      He  collected  Greek  jewelry,    and  by  chance*    we  found   in 
our  collections  one  single   identical    earring. 

Huth:     So  that  made  a   pair? 

Gans:     Yes.    It  made  a  pair*    because    I    let  him  have  my  specimen.     This 
strengthened  our  friendship. 

In   later  years,    he  moved  to  Mississippi*    and  when   I    Informed  him 
of   my    Intention  to  move  to  Berkeley*   California*   he  replied  that    I 
should  seek  a  connection  with  Professor  Darryl   Amyx,    who  he  said  will 
be  "the  coming  man"     [leading  scholar]. 

All    his  prophecies  came  true.      I    had  the  privilege  of 
establ  ishlng  closer  relations  with  Professor  Amyx  over  the  years*    and 
now   Professor  Amyx  Is  retired  and  I   am  a  very  old  man  of   ninety-six 
who  Is  reviewing  the  past. 


81 


A  Story  About  Authenticity   of   Coins  and 
Professor  Anes  Baldwin  Brett 


Gans:     While  speaking  and  thinking  about  coins*    an  eternal    problem  for  the 
collector  comes   back  to  my  mind*    and   It's  the  problem  of   genuineness. 
In  this  connection*    I    will    relate  an   interesting  story.      When  Mr. 
David  Nussbaum  gave  all   of  his  collection  to  me»    he  Instructed  me 
with  all    decisiveness*   "There  will   never  be  a  fake  coin  sold  by  the 
Nussbaums.      And    I   will    not  allow  you  to  sell    this  coin*"  pointing  to 
a  gold  stater   (ten   dollar  piece)   from   somewhere.     This  was  supposed 
to  be  a  forgery.      It  was  a   beautiful    coin*    and  considering  the 
prevail  ing  story   about   it*    I    had   it  mounted   later  as  a  brooch  for  my 
wife*   which  would  be  considered  a  criminal   act  by  numismatists  were 
It  genuine.      The  greatest  authority  on  coinage  from   [the  area  of   the 
supposedly  false  coin]   Is  Professor  Agnes  Baldwin  Brett,    who  wrote 
the  book  on  this  coinage,    covering  each    Item   minted.      She  once 
visited  with  me.      I    showed  her   the  coin,   and  she  said*    "Yes*    this    Is 
a   forgery."     A  few   months    later   she  visited  me  again,    asked  to  see 
the  coin  again,   and  said,    "I    don't  know  why,    but  today    I    like  the 
coin  much   better  than  the  first  time.      But  still*     I   can't  declare 
that   It   is  genuine." 

And  again,    months   later*    at  her  third  visit*    and  her  third 
examination,    she  just  shrugged  her   shoulders  and  said*    "It   is  a 
strange   specimen.      It  could  well   happen  that  a  new   specimen  Is 
discovered  that  was  struck  from  the  same  die*    and  thereby   prove  It  to 
be  genuine.      So   I    can  only   say*    I    do  not  know." 

When   I  told  the  story  to  one  of  my    leading  numismatist 
colleagues*    he  agreed  with   Mrs.    Baldwin  and  said*    "I   would  gladly 
include   it   in  one  of   my  auctions*    but   I    simply   want  to  avoid  trouble. 
As  you  know*   our    International    Association  of   Professional 
Numismatists  has  a  strict  ethics  rule  that  any  forgery  acquired   in  an 
auction   may   be  returned*    and  has  to  be  refunded  by  the  auctioneer. 
Why  should   I   expose  myself  to  all    these  business  risks?" 

I    personally   feel    that  there  are  not  only   genuine  or   fake 
coins,    but  there   is  also  a   small    category   of  questlonables,   as  this 
experience   shows.     And  by   all    ethical    considerations,    this  problem 
should  be  reconsidered  and  redlscussed  by   the    IAPN   (the    International 
Association  of   Professional    Numismatists),   the  trade,    and  collectors 
In  general. 


82 
Professor  Alfred  Sa I monv— -Friend  and  Art  History  Scholar 


Gans:      I  will   briefly  mention  Professor  Alfred  Salmony.      There  was  no 

business  connection  whatsoever.     His  field  was  Steppe  art  from  Russia 
and  Oriental    arts.      He's  with  the  New   York  University   Fine  Arts 
Department.     Oriental    arts   Interested  us  as  erstwhile  collectors   in 
this  field;   and  the  literature  on  Steppe  art  was*    to  a   great  extent* 
written   In  Russian.      Since  my  wife  was  Russian-born,    she  could  help 
him  with   difficult  translations. 


Professor   Ernst  Herzfel d— Excavator   and  Coin  Collector 

Gans:     Now»    I   will    talk  about  Professor   Ernst  Herzfel d. 
Huth:     Was  Professor  Herzfeld  also  at  New  York  University? 
Gans:     No.     He  was  not   In  New  York. 

I   think   I    met  Professor  Herzfeld  at  Joseph  Brummer's.     He  had  an 
Interesting  collection  of   coins*    mostly  from  the  Persian  region. 
Herzfeld  had  excavated   in  Persia  for  about  twenty  years.      He  had 
excavated  Pasargade  [also  PasargardaL    Samarra»    In   present-day    lraq» 
and  Susa.      Most  of   what  he  brought  home  he  had  sold  to  Brummer,    and 
the  remaining  objects — all    small    In  size  and  of   no   Importance — he 
left  with  me  on  consignment.      I    put  his  coins  in  a  special   coin 
auction*    for  which  Herzfeld  wrote  a  statement  explaining  some 
doubtful    historical    problems. 

He  became  a  friend  of   the   late  Kaiser   in  Deutschland*    whose 
autographed  photo  was   standing  on  his  piano.     And  the   late  Shah  of 
Iran     used  his  excavated  ruins  at  the  place  (a   place  name   I    can't 
remember  now)*   for  his  Thousand  Years  Celebration  a  couple  of  years 
ago. 

In  the  last  few  years  while  we  were  living  In  Germany,   we  became 
close  friends,    and  Herzfeld  and  his   sister  were  frequently   my  guests. 
His   literary   work  was  of   great   importance  to  science*    and  he   Is 
generally  acknowledged  as  one  of   the   leaders   In  his  field. 

it 


83 


Gans:     When  he  came  to  America*    he  gave  some  lectures  at  Harvard  or 

Princeton — I    don't  remember  where.      I    believe  he  had  his  home  at 
Princeton   before  he  closed  his  eyes   In  Switzerland. 

One  of    his  pupils  was  Professor  Richard  Ettl nghausen,    from  the 
Smithsonian   Institution.      In  the  same  circle  was  a  Dr.    Miles.     He  was 
a  curator    for  Oriental    and  Egyptian  art. 

Huth:     Was  he  a  curator  for  the  American  Numismatic  Society? 

Gans:     Yes.      And  he  belonged  to  the  circle  with   whom    I   had  an  occasional 
connection. 


Professor   Guldo  Kisch,    Margareta  Bleber.    Glsala  Rlchter.    Homer  and 
Dortothv    Thompson:    Scholars  and  Collectors 


Gans:      In  New   York  City,    I   happened  to  meet  Professor  Guldo  KIsch.      I    do  not 
remember   details  about  his  activities.     He  collected  Jewish 
antiquities,    and  was,    by   profession,    a   law   professor    in  Halle, 
Germany,    and  perhaps  also  In  New  York.      I   met  him  only  occasionally 
as  a  collector  of   Jewish   coins.     With  the  Nussbaum  collection,    I 
acquired  a  curious  medal   which   Intrigued  me.      I  remember  visiting  a 
scholar  at  City  University  of   New   York  who  led  me  to  the  correct 
interpretation,    which    I   followed.     For  hundreds  of  years,    this  medal 
was   described  as  the  Canbyses  Justice   Medal.     Professor  KIsch 
gave  his  explanation,   from  a   legal    point  of  view.     And  the  whole 
article  was  publ [shed,    as  you  can  see  here,    In  the  Art  Bui  let  In  of 
June  1947. 

Before,    I    mentioned  Agnes  Baldwin  Brett.     She  was  usually 
accompanied  by  Professor  Margareta  Bleber,    who  specialized  in  female 
costumes  of   the  Classical   Greek  period  and  of   the  time  of  Alexander 
the  Great.      I   told  you  about  Miss  Glsela  Rlchter,   the  world-renowned 
curator  of  the  Metropolitan  Museum  of  Art,    whom    I   met  again  at  a 
reception  she  gave   In  honor   of  an  antiquities  congress   In  Rome   in 
1961.      I    feel    honored  to  have  maintained  regular  contact  with   all 
three  ladies. 

But    in  this  connection,    I   must  mention  the  names  of  Homer  and 
Dorothy  Thompson,   whom  we  met  in  Athens,    literally  excavating  and 
screening  shards  and  pebbles  through   a  big  sieve.      For  quite  a  time 
we  observed  their  activities,   and  were  honored  by  an   Invitation  to 
lunch. 


84 


Huth:  You  mean  your  wife  and  you? 

Gans:  Yes. 

Huth:     And  you  were  on  vacation  there? 

Gans:     Yes.     This  was  our  first  vacation.     We  visited  Athens*   Greece,    and 
the  Greek   Islands.      That  was   In  1948. 


The  Largest  Privately  Owned  Numismatic  Library; 
Transfer  to  UCLA  through  Professor  Milton  Anastos 


Gans:      I   have  to  close  with  a  report  about  Milton  Anastos. 

Huth:     He's  at  the  University  of   California  at  Los  Angeles   (UCLA). 

Gans:     Yes.     These  scholars  come  to  my  mind  now*    and    I   will    close  this   list, 
though  others  might  fol low.     One  more  was  Professor   Anastos. 

Huth:     What   is  he  a  professor  of? 

Gans:      I    believe  Reman  or  Byzantine   literature. 

Professor  Anastos  had  the  great  gift  to  convince  me  that  my 
great  numismatic   library   belonged  at  his  university.     This  was  a 
difficult  decision  for  me,   but,    In  a  way,    he  was  right,    because  a 
number  of   books  and   issues  of   all   the  International    magazines  were 
stored  In  my   garage.      It  was   undoubtedly   the   largest  such   literary 
collection   In  private  hands.      I    was   sad  to  part  with  my  books  but 
happy   that   it  went  to  an   Institution  of    learning. 

[Interview  7:     November   14,    19833/1 


The   Dumbarton  Oaks   Connection ;    Scholars  and  Numismatists 


Gans:     So  far    I've  spoken  about  university   professors  and  other   scholars 
with  whom    I    had  regular  connections.      In  addition,    a  number  of 
smaller  coin  collectors  came  tome,   and  made  regular  additions.     But 
now»    after  thirty  or  more  years,    I've  forgotten  their   names,    and   I 
remember  only   places — like  Albany,   New   York,   Kansas  City, 
Mississippi,    Berkeley,    and  others — places  with   which    I   had  regular 
correspondence. 


85 


Gans:     But  mainly  on  my  mind  now    is  Dumbarton  Oaks*   where  the  relationships 
were  diversified   in  a   strange  way. 

Earlier,    I    mentioned  the   Introduction  from   Mr.    Edgar  T.   Newell. 
At  my   first  visit   in  Washington   [D.C.]    I   met  Mr.   Thatcher,    who  was 
the  director  of   the  museum  there.     At  that  time,    the  museum   stressed 
the  Byzantine  culture,    and  the  head  of   the  numismatic  division  was 
Professor   Whi  ttimore.      He  was  my  first  connection,    so  that  goes  back 
maybe  to  1940,    or   perhaps  1942  or  1943.     He  had  already  built  up  a 
remarkable  series.      He  always  carried  a   list  of  Byzantine  emperors 
for  whom  he  wanted  representative  coins. 

I    mentioned  before  that    I    had  established  a  connection  with  a 
dealer   in    Istanbul    who  proved  to  be  very   cooperative  and  efficient. 
Practically  every   time  he  sent  me  his  regular  consignments  of   smaller 
or  greater   lots,    he  added  a  few — mostly  sol  I di    [gold  coins]-- of  our 
desiderata   (a    list  of    what  we  wanted).     This  was  much  to  the  delight 
of   Mr.  Whlttlmore,   whose  list  shortened  and  shortened,  and  eventually 
there  remained  two  or  three  extremely  rare  coins  which  my   friend  In 
Istanbul    could  not  provide.      Intermittently,    I    could  offer  the 
Dumbarton  Oaks  museum   objects  of   art,    and  one  or  the  other  was 
accepted. 

Huth :     This  was  the  museum  at  Dumbarton  Oaks? 
Gans:      Yes,    their   coin   department. 

I   became  acquainted  with  many  scholars  who  worked  at  Dumbarton 
Oaks.      There  was,    for   Instance,    Professor   Freund*    from   Chicago. 
Professor   Freund  had  a   special    taste  for   unusual    variations  of   the 
Byzantine  series.      He  formed  a  splendid  collection   in  this  field,    but 
unfortunately    he  died  at  a  relatively  young  age.      He   left  his 
collection  to  Dumbarton  Oaks,    and    I   was  asked  to  evaluate  this 
collection  for   tax  purposes. 

On  another  visit  to  Washington    I   met,   just  by   chance,   the  just- 
mentioned  English  scholar,   Whlttlmore,   who  showed  me  the  newest 
acquisition.      If    I   remember  correctly,   this  was  a  certain  kind  of 
sol idl   that  was  used  by   the  emperor  at  the  court   In   Istanbul    as 
seals.     For  me,   my    last   deal    with   Dumbarton  Oaks  was  the  saddest  one. 
I  was  entrusted  with  the  sale  of  the  duplicates  of  the  Byzantine 
coins   in  the  museum.      I    believe  today,   after  twenty-three  years,    I   am 
allowed  to  disclose  the  name  of   the  museum  as  the  source. 

Years   later,    I    met  Mr.    Robert  Woods  Bl  Iss  at  his  cl  ub   In  New 
York,    in  connection  with  an   Important  work  of  art  he  was   Interested 
in.      Then   later,    when  he  died,    I    would  express  my  condolences  to  Mrs. 
Mildred  Bliss  at  the  museum,    where  she  spent  her  time.      At  one  time, 
Mr.    Bliss  was  a  U.S.    State  Department  official    in  France.      I   have 
talked  so  far  about  museums  and  numismatic  scholars. 


86 


Numismatic   Fine  Arts  and  New   Friendships  with   Collectors 
of  Ancient  Coins     ## 


Gans:      I    have  to  mention  a  number  of   persons  who  considered  the  collection 
and  study  of   coins  a  very   serious  and,   at  the  same  time*    pleasant 
hobby. 


Arthur  S.    Dewlng's  Remarkable  Collection  and  his  Frugality 

Gans:     The  first  one,    Mr.    Maxlme  Velay,    I   have  already  mentioned.     But  at 
that  time    I    had  also  met  Professor  Arthur  S.  Dewing.     Was   It  at  the 
time  when   I   had  already  established  Numismatic  Fine  Arts,   or  was   It 
even  earlier,    when    I   was  still   a  dreamer?      I   honestly  do  not 
remember.     Anyway,    we  talked  very  often,    and  he  Invited  me  to  his 
place   In  Boston  to  show   me  his  collection.      It  was  a  remarkable  event 
In  many  respects.      It  showed  a  kind  of   character  trait  which    I   could 
not  take  really   seriously,   but  which   had  an  effect  on  me.     When   in 
the  following  lines   I  tell   some  unusual    stories,    the  reader  will 
understand  why    I    simply  could  not  take  them   seriously. 

One  day    I   rode  to  Boston  by   train.     Mr.   Dewing  met  me  at  the 
train  station.     At  his  home,    I    sat  down  at  the  table  and  he  brought 
out  tray   after  tray  of   the  most  precious  coins.     He  spoke  of   a  man   In 
Cambridge  from  whom  he  had  gotten  these  extremely  rare  coins,    which, 
for  the  first  time,   showed  an   inscription   In   letters.     He  gave  me 
numerous  explanations,    which    I    did  not  understand.      I    had  begun  the 
study  of  Roman  coins,    but  Greek  coins  were  an  enigma  to  me.     Only    In 
later  years  would  Greek   letters  and  Greek  coins  become  a  science  that 
I   tried  to  learn.      I   spent  several   hours  at  his  house,   where  new 
trays  of   coins  came  one  after  the  other.      Finally   he  said,    "Now    it's 
enough.      I1 1  I   take  you  to  your  train."    En  route  he  asked  me,  "Can   I 
buy  you  a  glass  of   beer?"  which    I   refused.      When  we  came  to  a  tol  I 
bridge,    he  mentioned,    "This    I    do  not  cross.      It  costs  a   dime.       I'll 
take   the   next  one.      That  costs  nothing."     [laughter] 

At  a   later  time,   at  another  visit  to  my  house,    I   offered  him  a 
Syracusan  coin  for  sixty   dollars,    which  was  too  much  for  him.     At 
another  visit  at  a  later  date,    he  stumbled  over   the   same  coin,    which 
now   cost  ninety   dollars.      In  all    friendship    I   could  tell    him,    "You 
could  have  gotten  this  coin  for   sixty   dollars  at  your   last  visit,    but 
then   It  was  too  expensive  for  you." 


87 


Gans:     Mr.   Dewing  had  studied  law   In  Munich,   and  he  used  to  address  me  In 
German  when  he  telephoned.     Naturally.    I   recognized  his  voice  at 
once.     When  he  called  me  one  afternoon  he  said*    "Can   I   see  you 
tonight?"     He  came,    and  from  a  handkerchief   he  unwrapped  a  dekadrachm 
of  Agrlgentum.      He  said   In  an  angry  voice.    "This    I   have   bought  from 
Dr.    Hlrsch   for   seven  thousand   dollars."     This  was  one  of  the  rarest 
of  coins,  and   I   was  very  much   Interested  In  seeing  It.     That  same 
evening  he  bought  a  small   group  of  Greek  coins  from  me.    among  which 
was  also  a  dekadrachm  from  Naxos.   for  which  he  paid  three  or  four 
hundred   dollars.      This   sale  happened  prior  to  our  move  to  California. 
I   needed  money,   and   I    got  a   good   deal.      During  that  evening,    my  wife 
came   In  with   a  bottle  of   wine,    and  he  told  her,   "I   have  just  come 
from  Ohio,    where    I   have  bought  four   candy   factories."      Interrupting 
himself,    he  stepped  out  to  get  a  box  of   candy.     He  opened   It  with 
trembling  hands,    and  offered  it  to  my  wife.    Asya.     One  piece  of   candy 
fell    on  the  floor.      He  pointed  to   It  and  said  to  my   wife,    "That  you 
can  have."  closed  the   box.    and  that   was    It. 

At  that  time,    we   lived  a  few   blocks  from  Central   Park,   on  Sixth 
Avenue,    between  56th  and  59th  Streets.      It  was  close  to  midnight  when 
Professor   Dewing   left.     He  had  two  big  suitcases.     He  asked  me  how   he 
could  get  to  the  home  of  his  daughter,    who  lived  at  Madison  Avenue 
and  82nd  Street.      I    told  him   to  take  a  taxi    from    In  front  of   our 
house,   and   his  reply   was:  "Do  you  think    I   would  spend  money  for  a 
taxi?      I'll    walk  from  56th  to  59th,    and  take  a  bus  crossing  over  to 
59th  and  then  transferring  to  Madison  Avenue."     This  after  he  had 
spent  ten  thousand  dollars  for  coins  the  same  evenlngl     He  visited  me 
also   In  Berkeley.     When  he  visited  me   In  Berkeley,    It  was  only  to 
talk,    because  the  prices  were  too  high. 

ft 


Dr.    J.    Hewitt  Judd,    Omaha:     Greek  and  American  Coins, 
and  a  Burglary  Loss 


Gans:     Another  person  with  whom    I   maintained  friendly  relations  over  many 
years  was   Dr.   J.  Hewitt  Judd.   an  eye  doctor  who   lived   In  Omaha.     He 
was  a  professor   at  the  university   there.      He  had  a  beautiful    house, 
with  something   I   had  never   seen   before — a  steel    cabinet  encased   In 
cement,    for   his  coins. 

Huth:     Would  that   be   like  a   big  vault? 

Gans:     Yes,    a  kind  of   vault.      He  had  a  vault   In  his  house  with  a  steel    door, 


88 


Cans:     which  he  had  acquired  years  ago  from  a  bank  that  had  gone  broke.      In 
his  early   use  of   the  vault,    on  one  side  he  had  Greek  coins*    and  on 
the  other*    American  coins.     Both   sides  were  of  the  highest  quality. 

The  years  went  on,    and  he  decided  to  give  up  the  American  series 
and  concentrate  on  Greek  coins.     He  always  gave  a  party  for  ten  to 
twelve  people  when  we  came.      My  wife  and   I   stayed  at  his  home.     The 
director  of  the  Omaha  Museum  was  always  Invited.     Relationships  with 
the  museum   were  soon  created.      I   had  a  few  Renaissance  busts  and 
other   Italian  art  works  which   I   gave  to  the  museum.      So   I    could,    In  a 
way,    repay   Dr.    Judd's  kindness  to  me. 

Dr.    Judd  had  an  extremely   fine  eye  and  could  detect   details 
which  even  numismatists  could  not  recognize.     He  assembled  a 
beautiful    collection  of   perhaps  five  hundred   Items.      And  strangely 
enough,    he  had  some  one  hundred  gold  coins  which  were  extremely  rare, 
and  four  hundred  silver   coins. 

I   remember  the  15th  of   May,    1975.     The  Judds  came  to  my  home 
here  In  Berkeley  for  a  cup  of   coffee.     At  that  time,    their  only 
daughter  was  married  and   lived   in  San  Francisco.      Dr.    Judd  selected 
ten  Greek  coins  which  he  believed  were  not  represented   In  his 
collection  and  which   he  wanted  to  take  home  for   checking. 

Ten  days  later   I   got  a  call    from  him   in  Omaha.     His  vault  had 
been  broken   Into  and  all    the  coins  stolen.     My  own  ten  coins  had  also 
been  taken,    but    I   was   insured,   and  so  that  was  negligible.     But  his 
own  coins,    which   were  also   insured,    he  had  handled  in  a  negligent 
way.      They  were   Insured,    but  he  had  believed   In  his  vault.     He  should 
have  raised  the   insurance  value  to  a  multi-dollar  figure. 

A  catalog  of  the  Inventory   could  be  made,    and  a  year  or  two 
later  a  group  of  coins  appeared  somewhere  In  Europe  which  were 
suspected  of   being  Judd's  coins.      I   was  the  only  one  who  really   knew 
Judd's  collection.        I   was   invited  by   the   INA  to  examine  them    In 
Chicago. 

Huth:     What's  the   INA? 

Gans:     Thafs  the  name  of   an   Insurance  company — INA.      I    was   invited  to  come 
to  Chicago  to  examine  the  recovered   lot.     One  single   Item    I    could 
prove  to  be  Judd's,    which   proved  that  the  owner,    the  dealer,    had  more 
stolen   Items.     Many  months  later    I   was  invited  again  to  examine  the 
second   lot,    which  consisted  solely  of   Judd's  coins.      The  second 
invitation    I   had  to  refuse.      I    was  already  over  eighty.      The  coins 
were   In  Montreal,    and  the  judge  would  not  al low  them  to  be  sent  to 
Berkeley.      From  then  on,    I    lost  track  of   the  coins.      I    heard    later 
that  the  majority  of   the  silver  coins  (which  are  very    Important   In 
the  Greek  series)   were  recovered.     But  not  a   single  gold  coin  was 
retrieved. 


89 


Gans:       Later    I  had  a  card  from   Mrs.    Judd  that  reported  her  husband  was  very 
sick  and  that  they   had   left  their  home.     This  was  a  tragic  end  for 
charming  people  and  a  beautiful   collection,    for  whom    I   will   always 
have  the  utmost  affection. 


Burton  Y.   Berry,    Istanbul:     Collector  of   Phillip  and  Alexander  Coins 


Gans:     Now    I   will    talk  about  another  person  from  an  entirely   different 
circle,    Mr.    Burton  Y.    Berry,    who  worked  for   the  State  Department. 
His  address  was  the  University  Club   in  Washington,    D.C. 

Huth:  Was  he  a  coin   dealer? 

Gans:  No. 

Huth:  Shal I  I  read  this  note  you  wrote  about  him  for  your  scrapbook? 

Gans:  Yes. 


Huth 


Gans: 


[reads]  "We  met  soon  after  our  move  to  the  United  States.   I  think  he 
must  have  found  me.   I  remember  smal  1 1  sh  transactions  and  mal  I  Ing  to 
the  University  Club,  a  place  about  which  I  formed  some  strong  Ideas. 
When  he  Invited  me  to  visit  him  there,  I  eagerly  accepted  his 
Invitation.   I  remember  him  picking  me  up  and  showing  me  the  club, 
his  big  gym,  the  many  bathrooms,  and  finally  his  room." 


Was  th 
Washington? 

it 


Is  the  point  at  which  he  Invited  you  and  you  flew  to 


Yes,    he   Invited  me  one   day,    and   I    flew   to  Washington.     He  showed  me 
the  University   Club,    which  had  a  very    large  and  practical    gym.     His 
room   was  very   modest  and  it  contained  I  ittle  more  than  an  Iron 
bedstand,   a   little  cabinet,   and  a  washstand.      I    was  very   surprised 
that  a  high  official    with   the  State  Department  would  live   In  such 
primitive  surroundings. 

But  then  he  brought  out  little  boxes  that  contained  100  gold 
staters  from  the  time  of  Phillip  and  Alexander,    which  made  everything 
all    right,    with   each  more  beautiful    than  the  other.      Such   beauty    In 
such  quantity    I   had  never   seen   before. 


90 


Cans:     A  kind  of  friendship  was  established,   and  from  then  on,    I    got  a 
call   relatively  often  from  Washington  with  such  comments  as; 
Tonight    I'm    leaving  for  the  Near  East.      Can    I    see  you   around  eight 
o'clock?" 

He  would  come.      We  had  a  pleasant  talk,    a  bite  to  eat,    a  glass 
of  wine,   and  he   left   In  the  early  hours  of   the  morning.     Berry   always 
had   Interesting  stories  to  tell. 

Sometimes  he  found  one  of  my  coins  that  he  wanted,    but  very 
rarely.     But  on  the  other  hand,    I   had  much   better   chances  to  find 
coins   I    wanted.     He  brought  hoards  of   coins  from   the  Near  East,    and 
was  generous  enough  to  part  with  a  few  pieces.      I    am   convinced   it  was 
never  a  business  deal    for  him,    but  an  act  of    friendship.     When  he 
retired,   he  built  a   nice  house  on  the  campus  of  Roberts  College   in 
Istanbul,    having  made  an  arrangement  with  the  administration  of  the 
college  that  it  would  become  the  property   of   the  college  when  he   left 
or   died. 

In   1958  we  visited   Istanbul.      He   Invited  us  for    lunch   and  drove 
us  around  the  neighborhood  for  hours.      I   remember  we  came  close  to 
the  Black  Sea,    and  he  said  to  Asya,    "In  that  direction    lies  Odessa, 
where  you  were   born." 

To  my  surprise,    I   heard  not  too   long  ago  that  he   left    Istanbul 
and  moved  to  San  Diego.     We  correspond  once   in  a  while.     There  was  no 
business   deal    since  our   1958  visit,   but  he  never  failed  to  send  me  a 
complimentary  copy  of  his  books  about  his  collections,    and  about   life 
In  Turkey   and  so  on,    which   are  all    well    written  and   Interesting. 

One  nice  idea  was  that  he  never  sent  Chrtlstmas  cards  but 
instead  he  sent  calendars   In  July,    which  always  had  numismatic 
references.     They   are  all    in  my   scrapbook,   which   includes  a  number  of 
photographs  taken  here  and  there  from   his  surroundings. 


Friendship  with  Hans  von  Aulock,    Istanbul 


Cans:      I    must  now   speak  of   another  person  who  was   in  every  respect  Berry's 
contrast.     He  also   lived   in    Istanbul.      His  name  was  Hans  von  Aulock. 
He  was  a  representative  of   the  Dresdner  Bank,    Germany's  second 
largest  bank.      He  had  a  fantastic  personality.      I    called   him   "the 
hunter."     For   years  we  had  a  nice  correspondence.      He  got  a  card  from 
me;    I   got  a  card  from  him — nothing  exciting.     But  there  was  a  feeling 
on  my  side  that  this  was  an  interesting  fellow   with  whom   I  must  form 
a   closer  relationship.     He  was  a   banker,    as    I   had  been  for  thirty 
years.     We  both   were  collectors.     The  word  "hunter"  was  symbolic— 


91 


Gans:     while    I   had  my  specialty    In  certain  antiquities*    coins*   etc.*    he   was 
a  universal    collector.     One  year   In  the  wintertime,   he  flew   to  South 
Africa  to  hunt  lions  or  crocodiles,  and  In  the  fall    he  flew  to 
Hungary  to  hunt  stags,   and  In  between  he  had  a  hunting  lodge   In 
Anatolia,    where  he  hunted  for    I    don't  know   what.     He  had  a  mansion  on 
the  Bosporus  Strait  with   a  big  garden,    which   was  almost  like  a  park. 
I  remember  a  lunch  where  some  roasted  birds  were  served,    and  he  said. 
These  birds  are  now   the  hundred  twenty  thousandth  animals  I   have 
shot." 

I    don't  know,    of  course,    of   his  business  dealings,    but   I 
remember  the  day  of  our  arrival    when  he  picked  us   up  at  the  airport, 
and  suddenly   said.    "I   have  to  go   Into  this  store.     He  has  called.      He 
has  something  for  me.      So  please  wait  here.      I'll    come  out  right 
away."    He  did  not  come  out  right  away.      My   wife  and   I   waited  for  one 
and  a  half  hours   In  the  sun.     When  he  finally  appeared,   with  a  red 
face  and  shaking  hands,    he  only   said.    "I    bought  the  finest  collection 
of  coins  of  an  unknown  country,    which  are  the  most  beautiful    pieces    I 
have  ever   seen    In   my    life."     So  we  had  to  excuse    It. 

it 

In  the  evening,    he  had  a  big  party.     The  German  ambassador 
appeared,   and    I    don't  remember  who  else.      In   between,    he  took  us  to  a 
special    room   with   a  wonderful    carpet,    and  a  kind  of   porcelain 
service,  the  manufacturer  of  which  was  completely  unknown,  and  which 
he   later  sold  at  a  big  price. 

There   Is  another    Important  story   concerning  von  Aulock  which, 
however,    I   will    leave  out  here  and  talk  about   later. 

Since  then,    we  had  an  occasional    exchange  of    letters.      With  his 
help,    I   could  secure  a  small    number  of    important  coins,    but  no  real 
business  was  ever   transacted,    and   I    got  the  news  perhaps  a  year  ago 
that  he  and  Mrs.   von  Aulock  perished   In  a   car  accident. 


Leopold  Canslo,    Washington,    D.C. :     A  Special    Friend 


Gans:      In  this  connection,    I   will   mention  another  friend  of   mine,    Leopold 
Canslo.     He  occupied  an   Important  post   In  the  World  Bank.     He  was 
located   in  Washington,    D.C.     He   Is  an    important  numismatist  and  a 
collector    In  the  best   sense  of   the  word.     He  knows  coins,    he  knows 
history,    he  has  good  taste  and  a   keen  eye.      About  the  time   I    stopped 


92 


Cans:     numismatic  activities*    he  did  also.     But  he  studied  Anatolian  coins 
In  detail*   and  dedicated  his  articles  to  the  memory  of   von  Aulock* 
whom  he  held   In  high  esteem. 

Maybe   ifs  vanity,   but    I   would   like  to  repeat  a  paragraph   from   a 
letter  von  Aulock  wrote  me   In  August*    1970:     "Of   all    the  great 
num  Ismatl  sts— -al  I   older  than   I — there  were  three  which  were  closest 
to  me   In  a  human  way:      E.   S.  G.   [Edward  SIgmund]  Robinson*    Henry 
Seyrig,    and  Edward  Cans.     The   last  one    I   have  met  too  rarely.      With 
this   latter   person*    a  rare  sympathy  has   developed.      And  not  only 
that,    but  a  kind  of   soul    friendship." 


93 


IX     CHOOSING  CALIFORNIA  AS  THE  PLACE  TO  LIVE:   A  NEW  BERKELEY  HOME 

AND  NEW  CONNECTIONS,    1951    TO  1957 
[Interview  8:     November  23,    1983]## 


Deciding  Where  to  Settle;   Tour  Around  the  United  States    In   1951 


Gans:     We  I Ived  In  New  York  for  about  fifteen  years,    but  were  not  really 
very   happy   with  this  noisy,    dirty   city,    and  the  terrrlble  climate. 
Finally,   we  decided  to  make  a  trip  around  the  country  by  train, 
visiting  our   friends  en  route,    starting   In  Boston,    then  Chicago, 
Omaha,    Denver,    Salt  Lake  City,    and  all    over  California,    back  to 
Arizona,    New    Mexico,    and  home.      It  was  an  all-purpose  trip, 
sightseeing,   etc. 

Huth:     Do  you  remember  the  year? 

Gans:     That  was   In  1951.     The  main   purpose   probably   was  to  see  our   daughter, 
who  was  studying  at  U.C.  Berkeley,    where  a  number  of   friends  and 
relatives  al so   I Ived. 


Decision  to  Move  to  Berkeley,    California,    and  to  Bull d  a  Home,    1952 

Gans:     To  move  to  the  West  was  always  In  the  back  of  my  mind,    particularly 

looking  toward   I  Ife   In  a   smal  I    city,    because  of  the  poor  vision  of  my 
wife,   which  was   constantly   diminishing. 

The  year   1952   was   supposed  to  be  an  eventful   one,    because   It  was 
the  fiftieth  jubilee  of   the  ANA   (American  Numismatic  Association). 
Four   dealers,    Including  me,    were  Invited  to  arrange  an   Important 
auction   sale.     Our  work  started   In  January.      The  sale  was  held  at  the 
end  of  August,    and   Included  some  five  thousand  coins.      For   the 
customers  and  collectors,    It  was  a  great  event.     We,    the  auctioneers, 
were  disappointed — we  just  broke  even. 


94 


Gans:     When  we  tol  d  our  friends  about  our  trip  and  what  we   I  Iked  best,    we 
always  said  Berkeley  or   Santa  Barbara.      In  Berkeley,    we  had  even 
bought  a   small    piece  of    land,    simply   for   Investment  purposes.     So   I 
said  to  my   wife,    "In  order  to  just  break  even,    we   don't  need  to   live 
in  New   York.     We  have  a   piece  of    land   In  Berkeley.      Why   not  build  a 
little  house  there,    live   In  a  place  where  the  word  "snow"  Is  unknown, 
where  we  meet  kindly  drivers,    [laughter]     and  I  ive  In  the  atmosphere 
of    a  great  university.      Our  good  friend   In  Berkeley,    Mr.   Oscar 
Gerson,    Is  a  famous  architect.     He  will    build  a  house  with  our 
cousin's  assistance,    and  we  can  end  our    life   In  pleasant 
surroundings."     We  decided  to  move  to  California   In  1952.      We 
actually   moved   In   1953.      I   have   lived  here  ever   since.      Our   hopes 
were  fulfilled.     Twenty-five  happy  years  were  granted  us  here,   by 
gracious  fate.      I   myself,   twelve  years  older  than  my   wife,    had  to 
survive  her,    and    I   write  this   in  my   ninety-sixth  year. 


Continued  Contact  with   New   York  Customers.    In  Berkeley 


Gans:     The  friendship  with  my  New   York  customers  continued  unabated,    and 
when  they   came  to  the  West,    they   dropped   in  at  my   place. 


More  on  Professor   Arthur   S.    Dewing 


Gans:      In  this  connection,    I   remember  Professor  Arthur  S.   Dewing,   whose   last 
visit  had  a  pathetic  character.      There  was  no  talk  of   buying  coins, 
but  intimations  about  what  to  do  with  his  old  collection.     He  had 
brought  his   daughter  with   him,    for   the  purpose  of  establishing  an 
acquaintance,   asking  me  to  advise  her  when   she  called  me.      Later,     I 
was  able  to  help  her.      The  rest  was  tragicomic.      I   asked  about  Mrs. 
Dewing,   and  he  replied,   "I    left  her   In  the  car  outside,    and    I   am  now 
going  to  San  Diego  to  see  the  zoo  and  the  animals.      I    I  Ike  them 
better  than  people."     Those  were  the   last  words  we  ever  had  together. 

Some  of   his  character  traits  may   have  been  disagreeable.     His 
avarice  was  disgusting.     But   I   simply  have  a  feeling   It  was  a  make- 
do.     But   In  spite  of   all    this,    I    liked  him.     There  must  have  been 
something  In  his  life  that  made  him   that  way.      There  was  gossip  that, 
as  a  young  man,    his  family   lost  their  whole  fortune,    and  it  was  his 
ambition  to  reestablish   himself.      It  Is  just   gossip.      I    know   nothing 
about   it. 


95 


Huth:      Did  you  think   it   unusual    that  his  wife  stayed   in  the  car? 

Cans:      Yes.     He  was  here  with  his  daughter   for  one  and  a  half   hours  and   left 
his  wife   in  the  car. 

Huth:     Do  you  think  he  was  embarrassed  by   the  way   she   looked? 

Gans:      I    don't   know.       I    liked  this  person,    but   I    should  have  given  him  a 
slap  when  he  said  to  my   wife,    "Thafs  for  you,"  referring  to  the 
piece  of  candy   that  fell    on  the  floor.     But    I   was   laughing.      It  was 
tragi  comic. 


Alfred  Schoenl Icht  and  the  Jade  Buffalo 


Gans:     Another  name  comes  to  my  mind— Alfred  Schoenl  I  cht.     He  was  the  owner 
of   the  oldest  Dutch   banking  firm,   Teixerla   de   Mattos.     He  was 
respected  as  an   international    banker  and  a  collector  of   Chinese  art. 

If 

• 

The  banking  connection  with   Schoenl  icht  goes  back  to  Bert  In,    where   I 
simply  saw   him,    but  never  exchanged  any  words.      His  business 
activities  were  conducted  by   a  colleague  of   mine.     Ten  or  more  years 
later,    I  met  him  socially   In  New   York.     He  addressed  me  with  the 
words,    "Your   colleague  was  a  crook.     But  your  reputation  here   is 
good,   and   I    believe  we  could  become  friends."     And  so   it  was. 

He  was  only  slightly    Interested   In  coins,    but   brought  friends 
who  became  good  customers.      We  got  together   socially,    but   I   feel   our 
friendship   is   best  proved  by   the  following  story. 

In  younger  years,    his  firm  was  the   leading  one   in  a  consortium 
that  built  a  railway   somewhere   In  Southeast  Asia.      In   digging  for    it, 
they   discovered  a  resting  buffalo  made  of  jade.      He  considered   It  the 
pride  of   his  collection. 

Once,    he  had  to  go  to  Europe  for   a  number  of   months.     He  brought 
the  buffalo  to  me  for   safekeeping  purposes.     He  considered   it 
dangerously  exposed   In  his  own  house,    among  his  other  treasures. 
When  he  returned  to  New   York,   he  said  to  me,   "You  can   keep   it  for  the 
time  being,    since    I    know   you  enjoy    it  as   I    did  for   so  many  years." 


96 


Gans:     After  a  year  or  so   I   returned   It  to  him.     He  had  moved  to  a  new 

apartment   In  New   York,    and   it  should  be   Included  when  the  Schoenllcht 
collection  came  on  the  market.     His   generosity   was  a  noble  act  of 
friendship. 


Kenneth  Richmond  and  the  Connection  with  Colonel    Dykman,    Princess 
Xenia,   and  Dr.   Hermann  Feith 


Gans:     Another   pleasant  customer    in  New   York  was  Mr.   Kenneth  Richmondf 
treasurer  of   the  great   department  store,   Abraham  and  Strauss,    In 
Brooklyn.     "Each  Greek  coin  was  an  art  work" — words  he  repeated   In 
every  conversation  a  thousand  times.     And  he  treated  them   also  as  art 
works.      His   decorator   staff   made  nice  boxes  to  order   for  these  coins. 
He  always  said,    "Art  works  must  be  In  art  works." 

It  was  shortly   before  our  move  to  Cal  Ifornla  that  he  told  me  the 
following  story.     One   day  he  had   lunch  with  his  firm's  attorney,    a 
certain  Colonel    Dykman.     He  said,    "While   I    was  reaching   in  a  breast 
pocket,   a  coin   fell   on  the  table,   and  Mr.   Dykman  asked  me,   'What   is 
It?'     Then    I   told  him   about  my  Greek  coins,    my  collection.      Then  he 
told  me  about  one  of   his  clients,    the  Princess  Xenla,    the   daughter  of 
the  Grand  Duke  George   Mlchallovlch   [first  cousin  to  Emperor  Alexander 
III],    who  was  the  uncle  of   the  Tsar." 

Before   I   continue  with   this  story,    I   must  interrupt  and  tell 
another   story.      Earlier,    I   mentioned  the  name  of   Dr.   Hermann  Feith, 
whom    I   met   in  New   York  City   soon  after  our   arrival.     This  Dr.  Feith 
was  a  well-known  numismatist   In  Germany. 

His  specialty   was  coins  of   the  Neuzei  t  per  iod,    begl  nni  ng  w  ith 
the  year  1600.     He  was  a   good  raconteur  and  practically  our   daily 
guest  for    lunch.      He  told  us  of   a  friendship  with   the  Grand  Duke 
George  Mlchailovlch  of  Russia,    who  had  undoubtedly   been  the  greatest 
Russian  numismatist,    had  built  a  numismatic  museum  for  everything 
having  to  do  with  Russian  numismatics,  and  had  written  a  work  which 
originally  comprised  twelve  volumes — a     thirteenth  volume  never  got 
to  publication.     The  set  showed  every  Russian  coin,    every  Russian 
uKaz   [decree]  connected  with  coinage,    and  it  was  considered  the 
master  work  of   publications  on  this  subject. 

Continuing  my   story   about  Mr.    Dykman,    here  again,    fifteen  years 
later,    the  Princess  Xenia  told  him  that  when  her  mother   needed  money, 
they   had  removed  all    the  gold  and  platinum  coins  from  their 
collection  and  had  sold  them  by  way  of  an  auction   In  London. 


97 


Cans:     She  further  told  Dykman  that  the  remaining  sliver  and  copper  coins 

had  been  tremendously   devalued   In  the  sale,    that  they   were  estimated 
as  having  a  value  of  five  or  ten  thousand  dollars*    and  now   the  two 
surviving  daughters  needed  much   more  than  this  amount  of  money. 
Dykman  asked  Mr.   Richmond*    "Do  you  think  your  friend  Mr.  Gans  could 
give  us  any   adv  ice?" 

II 

So  all    four  of    us  had  a  very   nice  meeting—Princess  Xenia,    Mr. 
Dykman.    Mr.   Richmond,    and  myself.      In  effect,    the  story   was  as    I 
explained  above,    with   the  exception  that  the  collection  was   In  two 
giant  cases  and  that  there  existed  only   the  crudest   Inventory.      This 
meant  that  the   Inventory  only   noted  that  package  number  one  contained 
twenty  rubles  and  thirty   copper  coins  and  so  on,    up  to  a  thousand  or 
more  packages.      I   explained  that.    In  this  form,    no  coins  could  be 
sold.      Coins  have  to  be   described  exactly— for   instance,    one  ruble 
from   the  year  so-and-so  made  at  that-and-that  mint,    and  described 
under   number  so-and-so   In  the  father's  catalog,    of  which  Xenla  still 
had  eleven  or   twelve  volumes.      So  the  first  job  would  be  to  produce  a 
complete  and  correct  catalog,   and  then  to  find  a  customer  for  the 
whole  collection.      Without  a  catalog  the  whole  collection  was  only  an 
accumulation  of  metal. 

Fortunately,    my   wife  was  Russian,    and   I   considered  producing 
the  necessary   catalog.     But   It  was  a  tremendous  job,   and   I   could  not 
say   how  much   time  would  be  consumed.      That  was   it. 

Huth:      Did  you  make  the  catalog? 
Gans:      No. 


Cataloging  and  Sale  of    the  Grand  Duke  George  Mlchailov Ich's  Great 
Russian  Coin   and  Medals  Col  I  ect  ion— For  Princess  Xenia 


Gans:      I    then  moved  to  Cal  ifornia,    and  Mr.   Richmond  visited  me  here  or 

called  me,       I've  forgotten  the   details,    but  the  essential    points  were 
the   following:      Xenla's  cousin  advised  her   that  an  obscure  coin 
dealer   In  California  would  not  be   Interested   In  such  things.      "You 
should  go  to  the   leading  art  firm   In  New   York,    the  Wildensteln 
Gallery."     So  Xenia  saw   the  manager  of   the  gallery,    who  only   smiled: 
"We  only  sell    paintings  of   the  great  masters — nothing  else.     The 
greatest  numismatic  dealer  fortunately    lives   in  New   York.     Ask  him. 
He   is  Dr.    Jacob  Hirsch,    who   lives   in  the  Windsor  Hotel    on  54th 
Street." 


98 


Cans:     Princess  Xenla  went  to  Hlrsch,   who  smiled  and  said»    "I    know   a   little 
about   classical    Greek  or  Roman  coins,    but    I    don't  touch  modern  coins. 
I   know  only  one  coin  dealer  who  might  undertake  the  job.      You  must 
ask  him.     He   is  the  only  one  whom    I    could  recommend.     Unfortunately, 
he  just  moved  to  Cal  ifornia.     But  maybe  you   can   get   in  touch  with 
him.      That   is  a  certain  Mr.    Edward  Cans."     Llaughter]     So  the  whole 
thing  came  back  to  me*     Colonel    Dykman  asked  me  to  come  back  to  New 
York  to  make  the  final    arrangements*    which    I   did*    and   in  a  few  hours 
everything  was  settled. 

A  couple  of   weeks   later,    two  giant  boxes  weighing  perhaps  a 
thousand  pounds  were  stored  In  my   garage*    and   I   had  a  headache  over 
how   to  start  the  job.      In  these  new  Berkeley  surroundings  were  two 
people  who  were  supposed  to  know  Russian  coins.     One  was  a 
professional*    rather   unpleasant  person  who  wanted  payment  for  each 
item.     The  other  was  an  enthusiastic  collector  of  Russian  coins*   who 
had  spent  two  decades   in  the  Caribbean  with  his  father,    who  had  been 
a  teacher  and  a   leading  patent   lawyer  for  one  of   the  big  oil 
companies.     He  was  selected.      It  was  for  him   a  work  of    love*   and   I 
soon   became  known  as  the  expert  for  Russian  coins.     Later,    my   friend* 
a  certain  Mr.    Todorovic,    was  pleased  that  he  was  able  to  pick  up  some 
of   these  coins  at  original    prices.     After  two  years  the  catalog  was 
finished.      Each   coin  was  correctly   described.      And  through   the  Grand 
Duke's  notes*    we  had  learned  which  was  rare  and  which  was  common. 

I   bel leve  that  each   rare  coin  was  represented   in  the  catalog.      I 
have  spoken  about  coins;  there  were  some  ten  thousand  of   them.     But 
there  were  also  medals*    five  thousand  medals.     There  was  practically 
no  printed  material   available  about  Russian  medals,    neither   in 
Russian  nor    in  any  other    language.      So  my   wife  and   I   spent  almost 
every  evening  for   a  year  writing  a  first   draft  about  the  five 
thousand  medals.      It   includes  every   necessary   detail.      With    it 
another  numismatist  would  be  able  to  put  them   in  the  right  order. 


Finding  an  Appropriate  Buyer   for   the  Medals,    in   1957 


Gans:     The  new  job  was  to  sell    the  medals.      I    decided  they   should  belong  to 
the  American  Numismatic  Association.      I   went  to  New   York  to  talk  to 
the  president.      In  my  mind*    I    thought  of   a  price  of   $125.000  to 
$150,000.      The  president,    whose   name   I    don't  recall,    talked   it  over 
with  the  trustees,    who  considered  the  figure  exaggerated  and  offered 
fifty  thousand,    which    I   considered  extremely    low. 

II 


99 

Gans:     The  second  should-be  owner,    In  my  mind,   was  the  Smithsonian 

Institution,    whose  curator   was  a  good  friend  of   mine,    and  who  agreed 
with  me.     He  spoke  with   the  secretary  of   the  Smithsonian    Institution, 
a   Mr.    Carmlchael,    who  gave  me  a  wonderful    letter  expressing  the  great 
Importance  of  making  the  Smithsonian   Institution  the  owner  of  this 
unique  col  lection. 

With  this  Impressive  letter,    I   went  to  New   York  and  was 
Introduced  to  the  people  at  the  Ford  Foundation,   whose  first  reaction 
was  very   understanding.     This  was  the  great  ma  I heur  [misfortune].     At 
this  time  the  Ford  Foundation  had  never  given  a  contribution  to  a 
museum.     Unfortunately,    from  now  on  the  matter  became  a  business 
affair,    and   I  must  admit  that   I   am  not  a  good  businessman.      I   may   be 
a  good  buyer,    but    I   am   certainly  a  poor   seller.    I   asked  my   friend, 
Abe  Kosoff,    In  Palm  Springs,    for  his  help.     He   In  turn  found  his 
friend,    Saul    Kaplan,    In  Cincinnati,    who  was  w  1 1  I  Ing  to  form  a 
consortium  for  the  purchase  of   the  collection. 

The  deal    was  closed   In  CIncInattI,   and  later  on  the  collection 
found  Its  place  with  a  member  of  the  Du  Pont  family,   and  It  became, 
In  the  end,    a  gift  to  the  Smithsonian    Institution.      I   believe   I   had  a 
little   Influence   In  this   last  transaction. 

Huth:     What  year  was  this? 
Gans:     About   1957. 

I   could  never  forget  the  bl Indness  of   the  approach   at  that  time 
of   the  ANS,    who  had  the  first  chance.      I   also  had  the  feeling  It 
would  not  have  been  the  case   If   Mr.   Newell   were  still   alive.      I   was 
able  to  render  a  great  service  to  Princess  Xenla  and  her   sister,    and 
their  gratitude  was  expressed   In  a  nice   letter  they   sent  me.      Mr. 
Richmond  gave   up  his   collecting  for  reasons  of   his  own.     But  he 
visited  with  me  once   In  Cal Ifornla. 


Gifts   of   Appreciation   to   the  American   Numismatic   Society    (ANS) 
and  President   Franklin   D.    Roosevelt 


Gans:     At  about  this  same  time   I   wanted  to  express  my  feelings  by  making  a 
gift  to  the  ANS   In  memory  of   Mr.   Edgar  T.   Newell.      I    gave  the 
organization  a  unique  gold  wreath  with  the   Impression  of   the  Roman 
emperor,   Gordlanus    III.      There  are  only  one  or  two  other   such   gold 
wreaths   In  existence,    In  the  Hermitage   In   St.    Petersburg   (Leningrad). 
This  honor  that    I   expressed  for   Mr.   Newell   made  me  a  benefactor  of 
the  ANS. 


100 


Cans:     Since  I  am  speaking  of  gifts*    I  remember  anurner  gift  which    I   took 
the   liberty  of  offering  to  President  Roosevelt,   expressing  my 
thankfulness  for  becoming  a  citizen  of  this  country.      It  was   Intended 
as  a  gift  from   my   collection  of   gold  jewelry.     Of   course*   the 
president  himself  could  not  make  the  selection  but  he  sent  his 
cousin.     His  choice  was  a  so-called  bul  la.   which  was  generally  given 
to  Roman  aristocrats  when  they  reached  a  cenaln  age.     The  piece   Is 
now    on  exhibit   In  his   library  at  Hyde  Park. 


Friendship  with  Writer  Louis  Zara 


Gans:     Naturally,   many  close  relationships  were  formed  over  the  years,    but 
one  which  still   exists  today  and  which   Is  considered  close  by  both 
parties   Is  a  friendship  with  Louis  Zara.     He   Is  a  well-known  writer, 
and  a  man   Interested   In  everything  and  always  helpful    In  every  way. 
When    I    lived  close  to  him   It  was  Interesting  To  discuss   problems  with 
him.    and  he  always  found  a  solution. 

it 

Huth:  He  sounds  like  a  nice  friend  to  have.  Do  you  still  see  him 
sometimes? 

Gans:  Yes.  He  cal  Is  me  from  New  York  to  ask  me  how  I  am  and  so  on.  He 
was  a  coilecior  of  coins  but  he  gave  that  up — 

Huth:  What  kinds  of  coins  did  he  collect? 

Gans:  He  was  a  collecror  of  ancient  coins,  and  he  once  served  as  a  trustee 
for  the  ANS.  He  was  a  great  traveler  and  always  open  to  anything 
new. 

[  Interruption] 


101 


Remembering  a  Thirtieth  Birthday  Gift  from  Paula:      The  Lapis  Lazuli 
"Gans"  Ring 


Cans:     On  my  thirtieth  birthday  my   [first]   wife*    Paula*    presented  me  with  a 
ring*      It  was  made  In  Germany  by  a  certain  Professor  Lowenthal,    from 
Prague*    a  famous  sculptor  who  had  worked  In  Germany  for*   among 
orners*    the  Krupp  family.     Later*    when  he  moved  to  England*    he  made 
the  first  medal    for  Winston  Churchill.     The  stone  In  the  ring  my  wife 
gave  me  was  a  lapis  lazuli  with  an  engraved  standing  goose — our 
family's  coat  of   arms.      I   could  wear   It  as   long  as  my  arthritis 
permitted   It.     Then  my   [second]   wife  wore   It*    until    her   passing. 

Huth:     What  year  was  that? 

Gans:  That  was  In  1979.  My  daughter  Lydla  asked  me  to  let  It  be  worn  now 
by  her  only  son*  who  In  turn  has  also  adopted  our  family's  name  and 
goes  under  the  name  of  Gregory  J.  Gans  Moore. 

Speaking  of  Gans*    It  means  "goose."     In  my   bank    I    was  known  as 
the  "blue  bird" — the  "blue  bird"  from  the  famous  Maeterllnk  play. 

Huth:     Professor  Amyx  told  me  you  have  a  sculpture  of   a  goose   In  your  front 
yard*    but   I   couldn't  find   It. 

Gans:      I   w 1 1  I    show  you. 


Unchanging  Life  Philosophy   and  Business  Style 
[Interview  9:     November  .50,    1983JII 


Gans:     Ail    my   life   I    loved  everything  small.      In  my   banking  firm    In  Berlin    I 
had  three  employees,    and  when   I   established  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  In 
this  country*    I    was  my  own  office  boy*    typist,    buyer,  and  seller.      My 
only  and  also  very    Important  helper  was  my   wife.      We  both   liked  to 
work,    to  share  every.nlng,    and  we  both   preferred  to  sleep  well   and 
have  modest  meals.      In  the  same  sense — It  may  sound  ridiculous  but   It 
Is  perfectly  true — In  those  thirty  years  that   I   was  In  business   In 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts,    I    never  appi  led  for  and  never  used  a  bank 
loan. 


102 


Affiliation  with   the    International    Association   of    Professional 

Nun!  smatlsts    (IAPN) 


Gans:     At  some  point.    I   have  to   Insert  an  event  that  touched  the  whole  coin 
business  and  which*    In  my  way  of  Thinking*    affected  me  considerably 
at  a   later  time.      It  must  have  been   In  the  early   1950's  that  a   few 
farslghted  colleagues   In  Europe  conceived  the  Idea  of  founding  the 
International    Association  of   Professional    Numismatists   (IAPN). 
Wnatever  the  actual   purpose  was  at  rne  moment*   this  action  became  of 
the  greatest   Importance    In  the  course  of   the  following  decades.     A 
serious  and  comprehensive  code  was  created  and   In  the  course  of  years* 
expanded*    which   demanded  the  highest  qualities  In  every  respect  from 
its  members. 


If    I   remember  correctly*    the  earliest  activities  of  the   IAPN 
were  limited  to  Europe*    but  soon  American  colleagues  were  asked  to 
join.     Natural  ly  the  qual  If  Icatlons  required  by  the  bylaws  were  val  Id 
worldwide.      It  became  customary  That  rne  president  was  a  European* 
and  the  vice  president  was  a  U.S.    citizen.      I   occupied  this   latter 
position  at  a  rather  early   date*    for  the  usual    term — two  years. 

Huth:     Do  you  remember  when  that  was? 

Gans:      It  was   In  the  early   lySOs. 

• 

With  one  stroke*   two  classes  of   coin   dealers  were  created.      I 
feel    I   can  say  that  In  the  circle  of  art  and  science*    the 
International    Association  of   Professional    Numismatists  (IAPN) 
occupies   Its  proper   place.      Art  and  science  are  the  two 
qualifications  for  the   IAPN.      In  the  other  classes  are  the  small 
dealers  who  deal   with  American  coins*   such  as  nickels*    dimes*   and 
other  coins. 

I   gave  up  my  membership  when   I    liquidated  my    last  coin*    but  a 
few  years  later  my  colleagues  made  me  a  permanent  corresponding 
member,    and   I    feel    honored  to  belong  again  to  the   IAPN. 


103 


X     TRAVEL,   NEW  AND  RENEWED  FRIENDSHIPS,    AND  THE  MOVE   FROM  COIN  TO 
SEAL   COLLECTING:      1958  TO  1971 


The   European  Adventures,     Israel,    and  Attendance  at  an    International 
Association  of   Professional    Numismatists'    Meeting,    1958  and   1961 


Gans:     The  closing  of  the  Russian  coin  and  medal    affair  for  Princess  Xenla 
opened  up  the  natural  question,   what  to  do  now?     And  we  decided  to 
fulfill    a   dream   we  had  for  years  and  years.     After  my   wife's  surgery 
In  1957,   we  went  to  Europe  for  five  months   In  Iy58  to  attend  a  meeting 
of   the    IAPN,    which   took  place   In  Vienna. 

Our  first  stop  was  Paris,    where  we  visited  my   brother's  family 
for  the  first  time  In  twenty  years.     He  had  already  passed  away   In 
1938.      From  mere  we  went  to  Vienna.      I   had  known  Vienna  very    little, 
but    I   had  a  sentimental    attachment  to  the  city  since  It  was  the 
birthplace  of   my  mother. 

it 


Developing  a  Close  Friendship  with  Dr.  Robert  E.  Gobi,  Israel  Visit, 
and  Meeting  Hans  von  Aulock 


Gans:   In  another  respect,  Vienna  became  a  city  of  great  Importance  for  me, 
because  I  made  the  acquaintance  of  Professor  Dr.  Robert  E.  Gobi,  and 
this  acquaintance  grew  with  the  course  of  years.  Out  of  this 
acqual urance  grew  an  Intimate  true  friendship  tnat  lasted  to  this 
day.   I've  receteved  handwritten  letters  of  as  much  as  sixteen  pages 
from  him.  And  his  interest  was  not  only  a  professional  one  In  coins 
and  art,  It  also  extended  Into  drawing  and  painting,  music,  singing, 
nature,  etc. 


104 


Cans:     We  saw   Israel   and  my   wife's  ramliy  residing  there.      For  the  first 

time  we  met  Mr.   Hans  von  Aulock  In  person.      I   have  already  mentioned 
him  several    times.     At  this  moment*    I   will   mention  only  one  event 
that  was  of    Importance  at  a    later  time.      He  showed  us  his  mansion. 
The  living  room  on  the  short  side  comprised  his  Tremendous   library, 
and  on  the  long  side*    maybe  twenty  coin  cabinets  housing  his 
Anatolian  collection*   which  was  probably  the   largest  one  In 
existence.     The  German  government  financed  a  catalog  which*   at  the 
time*    consisted  of  sixteen  volumes.     There  were  probably  more   later. 

He  showed  my   wife  and  me  a  number  of   artworks.     Then  he  asked* 
"Do  you  want  to  see  my   seals?"     I    said  of   course*    "Yes."     When    I    saw 
them*    the  majority  of  the  seals  reminded  me  of   what   I   had  seen  twenty 
years  earlier  In  the  Newel  I   collection.     When    I   asked  him    If   he  would 
sell    the  seals  he  replied*   "Yes*"  and  said  he  would   let  me  know    when 
the  time  nad  come. 

My   wife  and   I   followed  this  with  a  cruise  through  the  Greek 
Isands*   which    Impressed  us   both.     Our  next  stop  was  Germany*   and  then 
England. 

Huth:     Your  trip  was  over  a  period  of   several    months? 
Gans:      I  mixed  up  two  trips.      In  1961   we  went  again. 


Canadian  Travel*    1960  Sale  of   the  George  Bauer  Collection, 
and  Personal    Illness 


Gans:     From   then  on  we  decided  to  take   life  easier.      We  made  several    trips 
through  Canada*   and  several    Illnesses  reminded  us  of  our  age. 

Huth:     Did  you   do  any  collecting  on  that  trip? 
Gans:     No. 

The  start  of   the  1960s  seemed  to   Inaugurate  a  boom.     Together 
with  a  colleague  of  mine*    I    bought  the  collection  of   Mr.   George  J. 
Bauer  of  Rochester*   New   York*    which   we  put  on  sale   In  April*    1960. 
George  Bauer  was  a  remnant  of  the  few   older  real    collectors*    and  the 
coins  were  the  best  qua  I  Ity   that  he  had  saved  throughout  many  years. 
I   believe  he  was  wei  I   over  eighty  when  this  took  place.      I    was  blamed 
for  my   high  estimates*   but  nevertheless*   the  results  were  good* 
Inasmuch  as   I   had  borrowed  a  number  of  real    gems  from  my  own 
col  lection. 


105 


Gans:  The  second  part  of  the  sale  comprised  the  duplicates  of  the  Dumbarton 
Oaks  collection,  and  that  was  the  end.  Another  sickness  forced  me  to 
spend  the  end  of  the  year  In  southern  California. 

Huth:     Were  you   1 1  I    or  was   It  your  wife  who  was  a I  I  Ing? 
Gans:     That  was  me. 


The  Rome  Trip   In   1961;     Combined  Meetings  of   the   IAPN  and  the 
International    Numismatists   Congress 


Gans:     An   Invitation  to  attend  the  next  meeting  of  the   IAPN   In  Rome,    which 
was  combined  with  the  Congress  of  the   International   Numismatists, 
tempted  us  too  much,    and  In  August  of  1961   we  flew  to  Rome,     The 
meetings  of  the  congress  were  of  great   Interest,    as  well    as  the  coin 
shows   In  various  museums. 


The  Vatican  Coins 


Gans:     Of   special    Interest  was  our  visit  to  the  coin  collection  of  the 

Vatican,    and   I   remember  their  charming  dlrectoi — unfortunately    I   have 
forgotten  his  name. 

it 

He  asked  us  what  we  wanted  to  see,    and  we  were  able  to  admire 
the  fantastic  Hadrians,    Caesars  and  so  on.      I   was  especially   pleased 
when  we  went  through  this  tremendous  hal  I,    and  passed  a   I  Ittle  table 
on  which    I    saw,    en  passant,    perhaps  twenty   dlnare  of   the  Cornelius 
family.      I   told  the  director,    "I   see  you  have  a  beautiful    selection 
of   the  Cornelius  coins."     And  then  he   laughed  and  said,    "Yesterday 
Charles  Hersch   was  here  and   looked  through  our  Corneliuses.      These 
twenty  or  so  pieces  are  those  that  he  has  selected,  and  all   are 
unpublished."     Charles   Hersch    Is   a   collector. 


106 


Huth:      Is  he  related  to  the  other  HIrsch? 

Gans:     No,    he   Is  H-s-r-s-c-h,    not  H-1-r-s-c-h.      He  was  just  a  collector, 
as    I   was  or  many  others  were,    but  his  specialty  was  Roman  coins. 


Visit  with   the  Ernst  Nash   Family 


Gans:     Another  meeting  was  with  my  old  friend,    Ernst  [Ernest]  Nash,    and  his 
wife    Irene.      Irene  had  watched  our  house  three  years  earl ler  while  we 
were  In  Europe  for  five  months.     And  now  we  reciprocated  with  a 
visit.     This  one  took  place   In  the  hospital,    where  she  suffered  from 
cancer,  to  which   she  succumbed  a  few   months   later.     Her  husband* 
Ernst,    who  was  also  a  friend  of  ours  In  New   York,    and  who  had  married 
her  In  the  meantime,   had  been  In  the  legal    profession   In  Germany,    was 
a  photographer    In  New   York  and  later,    In  Rome,    he  became  the 
authority  for  what  was   left  of  classical    Rome.     He  wrote  a   book,    In 
two  volumes,    that  was  pub  I  I  shed  by  the  German  government  In  three 
languages — Italian,    English  and  German. 


From  Hobby   to   Investment  Only;      Coin  Collecting   In  the  1960s  and 
1970s 

[Interview   10:     December  7,    1983]## 


Gans:     We  have  arrived  to  the  events   In  the  1960s.      It  was  a  crucial    time. 
I   was  already    In  my  mid-seventies,    at  times  not   In  good  health,    and 
the  vision  of  my  wife,    who  had  always  been  a  wonderful    help  to  me, 
reduced  constantly  until    It  finally   reached  practically  zero. 

Retrospectively,    let  us  contemplate  the  coin  market.      When  we 
began,    for  the  dealer's  counterpart — it  was  a  hobby.    When  a  collector 
could  pay   three  dollars  for  an  Alexander  tetradrachm,    It  was  a  hobby. 
And   It  remained  so  when  the  collector  had  to  pay   five  dollars,    or 
even  ten  dollars.     But  where   Is  the   limit?     That  Is  a  question    I   ask 
myself  almost  dally.      I   have  already  mentioned  that  my  principle 
regarding   Investments   Is  to  collect  only   things  of    lasting  value. 
These  two  words,    "lasting  value,"  accompanied  me  throughout  my    life. 
Naturally,   for   dally    living,   one  needs  money,   and  the  time  came  to 
consider  when  and  how  to  separate  art  from  money. 


107 


Gans:     Before    I    continue,   a  few   words  about  the  coin  market.     To  say    It   In  a 
few   descriptive  words:     The  market  had  always  set  "extremely  fine" 
(e.f.)    for   especially    nice-looking  and  well-preserved    Items,    or 
"fine"   (f.)    for    less   good-looking  pieces.      Naturally   there  were  a    lot 
of  other  grades  In  between  and  beyond  these  two  descriptions.     Simply 
said,   the  price  difference  between  one  and  the  other  was,  very 
roughly,    100   percent.     But,    during  the  1960s  and  1970s,    out  of   normal 
movements  of  the  market  we  encountered  rising  jumps — 1000  percent, 
and  occasional  ly  even  much  more.     Such  jumps  became  events  which  were 
not  too  rare. 

Huth:     How  could  museums  add  to  their  collections  when  the  prices  were  so 
high? 

Gans:     They   couldn't. 

A  good  customer  of   mine — a  Mr.    Velay — could  afford  to  go  up  to  a 
thousand,    five  thousand,    or  ten  thousand  dollars  a  coin.     But  only 
one  man,    Mr.   Hunt,    has  paid  one  million   dollars  for  one  coin.      I 
believe  It  was   In  1978  that  a  coin  sold  for  three  hundred  thousand 
dollars.      Earlier,     I   had  bought  a  coin  for  two  hundred  or  three 
hundred  dollars.     Later,    the  same  coin  sold  for  a  hundred  and  fifty 
thousand  dollars.     That  was  two  years  ago. 


Disappointing  Experience  with  a  Major  European   Dealer 


Gans:      From  here  on,    I   prefer  to  talk  anonymously,    leaving  out  the  names  of 
the  people   Involved.      There  were  several    dealers   In  this  country,    and 
also   in  Europe,   who  asked  me  for   consignments.      In  certain  cases   It 
meant  that  they   simply  couldn't  afford  to  pay   cash   but  would  pay   for 
the  coin   immediately  when   It  was  sold. 

I   had  stopped  publishing  catalogs  and  price   lists,    and   I   retted 
on   liquidation  of   my   stock  by   this   detoui — by   using  colleagues   In 
other   places,    such  as  Europe. 

Throughout  my   whole  activity   as  a  professional    coin  dealer,    I 
had  only  pleasant  experiences  and  feelings  of  friendship  toward 
colleagues.     But  twice    I   experienced  disappointments  that   I   must 
at   least  mention,    since  every   rose  has  a  thorn  and  every   business  has 
experienced  disappointments.      Maybe  my  account  would  not  appear 
believable.     Here   is  one  case. 


108 


Gans:     A  leading  European  dealer  picked  out  four  hundred  coins  from  my 
stock — natural  ly,    the  best.      We  made  a  written  agreement  that  he 
could  fix  the  price  at  his  discretion,   that    I   wanted  to  receive  a 
certain  amount  of   money  every   year,    and  that  he  should  start  with  the 
sale  of  the  most  common  pieces,    leaving  the  gems  to  the  end.     But  the 
first  piece  sold  was  one  of  the  gems. 

it 

I    considered  this  a  mistake  and  did  not  say   a  word.     But   It  happened 
again  In  the  second  and  third  years,    and    I   was  forced  to  demand  my 
coins  back.     For  me   It  was  a  broken  agreement,   and  a  great 
disappointment  from  one  of   the   leading  firms   In  the  trade. 

Huth:     Do  you  want  to  give  the  name  of   the  firm? 
Gans:     No. 

But  half  of  the  coins  were  sold,   and  another   colleague  took  over 
the  same  agreement,    with  a  slight  variation,    that  being  that  the 
coins  could  be  sold  only  by   way  of  auction.     So  the  choice  of  the 
coins  to  be  put  on  auction  had  to  correspond  with  our  agreement. 
This  worked  fine,    and   I   still   owe  my  thanks  for  the  gentlemanlike 
handling  of   this.     Naturally,    In  an  auction  sale,    a  few   coins  always 
remain   unsold,    and    I    will    add  another   story   about  this   later. 


Questionable  Activity   bv   an  Unnamed  American   Dealer 


Gans:     As    I   mentioned  before,    the  value  of  a  coin   depends   upon   Its   condition. 
These   two  European   dealers   (In  the  story    I    have  just  reported)   had 
naturally   selected  the  best.     But   In  my   stock  there  were  a  great 
number  of    less  fine  specimens  that  still    were  desirable  for  the 
average  trader.     Several   American   dealers  had  consignments  from  me 
that  were  settled   in  a  correct  way.     There  was  one  dealer  who  also 
settled  correctly,    whom   I    liked*   and  to  whom    I    gave  certain 
advantages.      He  was  young,    enterprising,    and  knowledgeable — all 
qualities    I   cherished.     He  was  eager  to  get  business  from  me.     Once 
In  a  while,    the  thought  went  through  my  brain  as  to  whether    I   should 
offer  him  a  limited  partnership.     Strangely  enough,    neither  my  wife 
nor  customers  to  whom    I   had  recommended  him   liked  him.     But   I 
continued  helping  him,    because  consignments  of   good  merchandise, 
without    Investing  money,    is  a  desirable  thing.      My  consignments  to 
him  were  less  successful    than  my  European  experiences.     The  time  came 
when,    with   his  help,    I   could  sell   some  of   my  coins  which,   to  my  mind, 
had  a  high  value.      In  fact,    they  reached  prices  three  times  as  high 
as  he  accounted  for.     At  that  time,    there  were  price   differences   In 


109 


Cans:      the  leading  markets  In  Europe  and  America*    so    I   accepted  his 

accounting.     But  my    Inner   feeling  towards  him   became  cooler.     He 
traveled  regularly  to  Europe  and  to  England  to  attend  the  regular 
auction  sales   In  London.     At  this  tlme»    I   was  already    Interested   In 
seals*   and   I   gave  him   Instructions  to  buy  certain   Items*    Including  a 
particular  seal,    at  a  forthcoming  sale  In  London.      It  was  a  shock  for 
me  when   I   detected  something  that  I   can  at  least  describe  as  an 
Incorrectness.     The  London  auctioneers  print  realized  prices  with  the 
addition  of   the  name  of   the  buyer.      I   found  his  name  next  to  the 
price  paid  for  the  seal,    but  the  seal    was  not  del Ivered  to  me 
according  to  my  order.     He  had  kept  It  for  himself,   and  probably  sold 
It  to  somebody   else.      I    never  saw   this  man  again.      I    felt  a  great 
disappointment,    but  that  was   It. 


Unauthorized  Sale  of  the  Edward  Gans  Firm  Name:     Numismatic  Fine 
Arts" 


Gans:     When    I   gave  my  coin  consignments  to  this  unnamed  American  dealer,    I 

allowed  him  to  tell   the  source  of  the  coins,    which  made  It  easier  for 
him  to  sell    them.      It  Is  always  easier  when  the  origin  Is  well- 
established  as  a  renowned  firm.      In  one  case,   he  must  have  sold  a  coin 
together   with   the  sale  of   the  name,   "Numismatic  Fine  Arts."     I    was 
not   Informed  about  that.      In  a  piece  of   printed  matter,    years   later, 
I    saw   that,    al  I   of   a  sudden,    there  were  two  Numismatic  Fine  Arts.      I 
never  was  asked  for  a   permit.      It  was  a  great  surprise.     What  should 
I    do?      I    always  hated  Involvement  In   legal   questions.      Many  years 
ago,    I  had  to  engage  In  two  legal   matters  concerning  the  equivalent 
of   the   IRS   [Internal    Revenue  Service]   but  none   In  this  country. 

Had  my  erstwhile  partner  made  a  registration  of  my  firm's  name? 
All    these  questions  went  through  my   head.     And   In  addition,    should   I, 
as  an  octogenarian,   start  a   lawsuit  over  such  a  ridiculous  affair? 
It  had  meant,    for  me  at   least,    a  no  money  affair,    and  as   It  was  so 
often   In  my   life,   fate  managed  something  without  my  free  will,   which 
eventual  ly  turned  out  to  the  good  of   al  I    parties.     Ail  fond,    It  was  a 
highly   unimportant  affair,    not  worth  any  headache. 


1  10 

Fair   Dealing   hy    the  New   Numismatic   Fine  Arts 
II 


Gans:     By  chance*    there  came  an  opportunity   for  me  to  evaluate  the  way  of 
doing  business  by  the  new  owner  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts.     As    I 
mentioned  before*   a  few  coins  remained  unsold  from  the  Swiss 
consignment  mentioned  above.      I    gave  these  altogether  fifty   coins  to 
the  other  Numismatic  Fine  Arts*    and  their  sale  was  handled  In  the 
fairest  possible  way.     During  my   discussions  with   the  present 
president  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts*  my  jewelry  collection  was 
mentioned*   and  also  this  oral    history   project.     Now    I   am  talking 
about  the  Interests  of   the  sister   firm  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts* 
called  Summa  Gal  lery.     And  also   In  this  respect  everything  was   done 
In  a  fair  and  correct  way. 

Are  there  two  Numismatic  Fine  Arts — mother  and  daughter — or  two 
sisters?     This  Is  a  question  which   I    confidently  expect  will    be 
settled   in  a  friendly  way. 


More  on  the  Gift  of   the  Numismatic  Library  to  UCLA 


Gans:     There   Is  another   story.      Speaking  of   the   llquldaton  of   my   coin  stock, 
there  is  another  element  of  great  importance  to  me  and  that  was  close 
to  my  heart — my  numismatic  library*   which    I   believe  was  the   largest 
one   In  private  hands.      It  was  my   desire  to  see   It   In  the  hands  of 
U.C.    Berkeley,    but  this  campus  was  of   the  opinion  that  their 
collection  of  numismatic  literature  was  sufficient*   while  there  was  a 
dearth   at  other  campuses. 

I   got  acquainted  with  Professor  Anastos*    professor  of  Byzantine 
art  at  the  University   of   California  at  Los  Angeles*   who   like  Julius 
Caesar*    came*    saw*    and  acquired  the  whole   library    for  UCLA. 

Huth:     Did  they   catalog  that   library  as  a  separate  collection? 

Gans:     No,    but   at   least  they   felt  that  they   should  do  an  "ex   llbrls" 

notification   In  all   the  books  that  came  from  me.      Whether   that  will 
be   done*    I    don't  know.* 


Interruption:  to  wait  for  the  arrival    of   a  Channel   2  videotaping 
crew   that  recorded  a  portion  of   the   Interview.      The  videotaping  was 
part  of   a  series  of   television  programs  on  the  elderly.      As  of   the 
date  of   publication  of   this  oral    history,   this  videotaped  segment  has 
not   been   televised. 


111 


Acquiring   Significant  Seals   from  Hans   von   Aulock    In    Istanbul/ 
and  Professor  Edith   Porada's   Six-Year  Evaluation  of    the 
Col  lection.    1961    To   1968 


Cans:     Now    I    come  to  my   first  visit  to  my   friend*    Mr.   Hans  von  Aulock*    In 
1961.      I  already  mentioned  him  two  or  three  Interviews  ago,    but   I 
purposeful ly    left  out  one  very   Important  event,   because  It  comes  at 
the  end  of  my  story  about  my  coin  collection,    and  we  have  now  reached 
the  end.      It  was   In  1961    that   I   visited  him    In    Istanbul    for  the  first 
time.     As    I   mentioned,   he  was  a  representative  of  one  of   the   largest 
German   banks,    searching  for  everything — In  art,    animals,    and 
whatever.     He  was  a  charming  host.     Naturally  our  mutual    Interest  was 
In  coins,   and  he  started  to  show   me  his  coins.     He  had  about  twenty 
thousand  Anatolian  coins.      His  collection   Is  the   largest   In 
existence,    and  the  German  government  paid  for  writing  the  catalog  of 
about  twenty  volumes  (still   more  will   be  published).     He  showed  me 
other  objects,    and  finally   he  also  showed  me  a  collection  of  seals. 

Seals  always  had  a  certain  attraction  for  me.     These  were  some 
that   I    had  never   seen  before,    so    I    took  the  courage  to  ask  him, 
"Would  you  ever  be   likely  to  sell    the  seals?"     If  we  had  been 
speaking  about  coins,    I    would  never  have  dared  to  say   a  word.     But 
seals — It  was  an  outside  object  for  him,   so  he  very  generously  said, 
"Yes,     I    might.      Are  you    Interested?"      I    said,    "Certainly    I'm 
Interested."     He  said,    "Okay,     I   will    give  you  the   privilege,     If    I 
ever   sel  I    the  seal  s,     I   w  1 1  I    let  you  know,    and  you  will   be  the  first 
to  hear  about   it."     Then  we  had  a  wonderful    dinner.      The  ambassador 
from  Germany — everybody   was  there. 

One  year    later,    In   1962,   when    I    came  back  to   Istanbul    I   called 
him   up,   was  his   guest,   and  just  by   chance    I   asked  him,   'How   about  the 
seals?"     "Oh  my   God,"  he  replied,    "I    had  completely   forgotten  you  and 
my   promise.      I    sold  them   this  January.      I'm   so  embarrassed.     How    can 
I    make    it  up  to  you?"     Then  he  went  around  In  his  real  ly  tremendous 
house,    and  all    of  a  sudden    I   heard,    'Uurrahl     Hurrahl      I   have  to  show 
you!"     He  showed  me  to  a  cabinet  full   of   seals,    and  he  said,    "You  can 
have  these*      You  can   pay  me  any   price  you  want — five   dollars  apiece. 
It   doesn't  matter.       I    don't   care."     So    I    acquired  about  a   hundred  and 
fifty   seals  that  seemed  to  be  both  valuable  and   Interesting.     He  got 
a  few   cigar  boxes,    put  the  seals   In  them,    and  that  was  It.      I   brought 
them   back  to  Berkeley,    and  here  at  this   place,    a  year   later, 
Professor   Edith   Porada  visited  me. 

Now    I    must  tel  I    you  a  few   words  about  Edith  Porada.      Edith 
Porada  was  an  old  friend  of  mine.      At  that  time  she  was  a   professor 
at  Columbia  University,    and  she  was  generally  considered  the  greatest 
authority  on  the  art  of   Persia,    on   seals,    and  for   everything  Persian. 


112 


Gans:     She  had  written  a  book— I   think   it  was  published   In   1950— 

The  Corpus  of  Near   Eastern   Seals:   An   American  Collection.      Th  I  s   f  I  rst 
volume   was  on   J.    P.    Morgan's   collection  of    cylinder   seals.      It's  the 
very   famous  book.     She  often  said*   "In  coming  years    I    will    write  a 
next  volume."     That  time   never   arrived. 

By  chance  she  visited  me.    and   I   told  her  what  happened  with  von 
Aulock,    whom   of   course  she  knew  very  well.      She  said*    "Don't  ever 
underestimate  what  you  bought  here.     You   bought  the  finest  seals  that 
have  ever   been   in  a  European   collection.      They   are  the  earliest. 
They   go   back  to  the  fifth   mlllenium  B.C.    [4500  B.C.L      And    I'll    write 
the  second  volume;  this  time  on  these  seals.     Would  you  allow  me  to 
publ  Ish  them?" 

Of   course*     I   said  yes.      That  was   in  the  year   1962.     And  believe 
it  or  not,    I   got  them   back   In  1968.      It  took  her   six  years  to  write 
the  draft  about  these  approximately  one  hundred  fifty   seals  for  her 
forthcoming    book. 

Huth:     Could  you  tell    me  something  about  the  seals — how  old  they  were  and 
where  they   came  from? 

Gans:     That  was  what  she  did   In  her   draft  volume.      She  described  the  seals. 
And  now    I   can  tell   you  about   it. 

The  first  seal    could  be  dated  between  around  500  B.C.    and  2500 
B.C. — before  Christ.      And  then  came  a   number   of  very,    very 
Interesting  Items  from  the  third  mil lenlum,   second  mil lenlum  and 
ending  with  a  few   pieces  from  the  earliest  centuries  A.D. 

Huth:     So  they  were  all    very  old  seals. 

Gans:     Yes.     They  were  almost  all    stone  seals,   and  a  few   were  metal    seals 
of   all    sizes,    which  made  the  collection  extremely    Interesting. 

Edith  was  always  being  asked,    "Where  Is  your   second  volume? 
We're  waiting  for    it.      We  need   It."     And  a   few   years  ago  she  got  the 
gold  medal   from  the  Archeological    Institute  here  as  the  most 
knowledgeable   person    In  the  field.      She  said,    "I    know   that  you're  all 
bothering  me  to  write  the  second  volume.     But  give  me  a  few   more 
years.      I   can  tell   you  this  much — the  draft   Is  already    finished,    and 
I  have  started  a  revision.      It  will    take  a  few  years  more  before   it 
comes  out." 

Huth:      Is  she  doing  a  study  of   the  history  of   these  seals? 

Gans:     She  Is  taking  all    the  seals  from  my  collection,   her  collection,   and 
from   a  few   other   sources  that  belong  In  these  time  periods — of 
between  four  or  five  thousand  years.      I   think  the  earliest  date   Is 
somewhere  between  4000  to  5000  B.C. 


1  13 


Acqulrlny  Professor  Grosse's  Oriental    Seals  and  Jade  Objects   from 
Tlkotln    In   the  Early   1970s,    and  Na   Chl-Llanq's   Description 


Gans:     Now  that   I  had  the  seals  and  knew  what  they  were*    I   became  a  fool    In 
collecting  seals.      One  day*    about  1970,   the  last  day  of  the  year— I 
heard  from   my   friend,    Felix  Tlkotln,   an  old  Berlin  friend,   who  at 
that  time  had  to  dispose  of  the  collection  of  a  Professor  Grosse,    In 
Freiburg,   Germany.     Before  the  First  World  War,    from  1907  to  1912, 
Grosse  had   I Ived   In  Japan.      He  had  married  a  Japanese  girl    and  had 
accumulated  a  collection  of   everything — paintings,    ceramics,    seals, 
jade,    whatever  objects  of  Oriental    art.      Then  came  the  war.     A  few 
years   later  this  Professor  Grosse  died,    and  the  widow   entrusted  my 
friend,    Tlkotln,    with   the  sale  of  the  great  things,    some  of  which  we 
purchased,  and  they  went  Into  our  small    house.     He  was  asked  to  get 
rid  of  all    the  paintings,    scrolls  and  so  on.      That's  when  and  how    I 
heard  the  name  Grosse.     At  that  time,  most  of  these  Oriental    pieces 
were  out  of   my    line.      Now   Tlkotln  told  me,    "You  know,   Gans,    just 
before    I    left,   Grosse's   daughter   came  to  me.     She  wants  to  move 
again.     And  there  Is  a   little  collection  of   seals  and  small    pieces  of 
jade.      Do  you  want  them?" 

I  only  cried,  "Yes.    I  want  them.  Send  them."     I  didn't  ask  the 
price.      "I'll    buy   every   seal."     So   I    got  a   collection  of   Japanese 
seals. 

Next  came  a   disappointment.      Where  were  the  notes  about  the  seals 
from   Mr.  Grosse?     Who  could  read  Chinese,    Japanese?      Tlkotln   said,    "I 
will    ask  Grosse's   daughter  for  them,    but    I   am  afraid  everything  was 
lost   during  the  war."     And   It  was   lost.       I'll    have  more  to   say   about 
the  Grosse  collection   later. 

Now   comes  another   unusual    story.      I    have  a  cousin  here   In  San 
Francisco  whom    I  visited  sometimes,   and  who  just  by  chance  mentioned, 
"I    got  a   letter   from   my   nephew    from   Taiwan."     It  occurred  to  me  that, 
at  the  house  of  another  friend  of  mine,    I    had  seen  a  catalog  of   a 
collection  of  Chinese  seals — a  description  of   some  thirty  or  forty 
pieces — written  by  a  Chinese  man,   and   I  read  the  bibliography.      In 
the  bibliography   the  name  of   the  author,   Na  Chi-LIang   (a  wonderful 
Chinese  name)  was  mentioned.     He  was  the  curator  of   the  Taiwan 
Museum.     Tlkotln  said,   'Now,    do  me  a  favor.     Forward  a    letter  from   me 
to  your  cousin.      I    don't  know  your   cousin,    but   I    know   his  father  was 
a   famous   professor   In  Germany.      I'm  sure  he  will    do  me  a  favor   If  you 
back  me  up." 


1  14 

Gans:     So   I   wrote  him,   "Dear  Unknown  Cousin:     Please  be  so  good  as  to 

visit  the  Taiwan   Museum   and  try  to  find  out  what  they  know   about  Mr. 
Na  Chi-LIang." 

Promptly,    I   got  a    letter   stating,   "I    was  at  the  museum.     Mr  Na 
Chl-LIang  Is  more  or   less  the  curator  of  our  museum,    and  he  knows 
everything.      I    talked  to  him.     He  will    help  you,    but  not  now,    because 
he  has  been   Invited  to  write  the  catalog  for  the  great  Chinese 
collection   In  Minneapolis.      He  w 1 1  I    be  there  at  the  end  of   August, 
and  he  will    get   In  contact  with  you." 

That  happened  after  every   so-called  Chinese  authority    In  this 
country  was  a  failure.     Then    I    got  an  answer  for  one  seal    every   six 
months. 

I    don't  want  to  bother  you  with  all    the  details.      Mr.    Na  Chi- 
LIang  got  my   collection  of   altogether   seventy  or  eighty  Oriental 
seals,    and  he  sat  down  and  described  them    In  Chinese  and  in  poor 
Chinese-English.     What  should    I    do  now?      I   had  a  catalog  and  the 
pieces  were  described.     Fantastic  pieces.     They   were  all   collected 
before  the  First  World  War,    and  they  were  authenticated  by  an 
auhority.     He  had  taste  and  he  knew   what  to  write.     But  the   language 
he  was  using  was   important. 

II 

So  next  came  the  third  event.      Before  his  return  from  Minneapol Is  to 
Taiwan,    Mr.  Na  Chl-LIang  was  sitting  on  this  chair   [Edward  Gans' 
chair],    Mr.   Max  Knight  was     sitting  on  that  chair  [another  of   Mr. 
Gans'   chairs],    and  they   translated  Chinese-English   Into  American- 
English.      So    I    now   have  a  perfect  catalog  for  the  perfect  collection. 
Everything  that  happened,    as   I   showed  you  with   these  two  examples, 
were  miracles.      Everything  came  to  me.      I   was  not  chasing  any  of 
these  things.     But  where  any  help  was  necessary,    It  came  to  me. 


Miracle  Acquisitions  of   Seals  from   England.    Thailand.    Mexico  and 
Ecuador  Lead  to  the  Concept  of    Comparative  Study  of   Seals- 
Si  dl I  I Qaraohv 


Gans:      I   got  my   English   seal    from  London.      That^s  the  finest  seal    from   their 
historical    period  under  Rome.     And,   only  recently,   there  was  a  seal     I 
acquired  from   a  new   culture  found   In  Thailand,    in  the  northern  part 
of  Thailand,    and  evidently    it   Is  older  than   the  Chinese  culture. 
It's  estimated   it  dates  from   between  1500  and  2500  B.C.      It  was  only 


1  15 


Gans:     found  five  or  ten  years  ago,    and  nobody   knows  anything  about   It.      A 

friend  of   mine  at  the  museum    In  Thailand  collects  these  things.      Ifs 
all    a  miracle.     The  friend   Is  Dr.   Helnzer,    who  has   lived   In  Thailand* 
who  has  collected  Thai  I  and!  sh  art,    who  visited  with  a  peasant  there, 
and  she  bought  a   lot  of   artifacts  from   that  peasant.     She  had  a  very 
bad  toothache  when  she  was  here.     She  needed  a   lot  of  money,   and  she 
offered  me  two  seals  from  the  collection  from  Thailand.     So   I   bought 
two. 

I've  got  a  book  from  a  friend  connected  with  the  museum  In 
Milwaukee — I   am  a  friend  of  one  of  the  trustees,    who  Is  a  coin 
col  lector,   who   Introduced  me  to  one  of  the  curators,   who  was  a  Dr. 
Bulraly,   who   Is  only    Interested   In  Latin  American  art.     We 
Immediately   were  good  friends.      I   saw   his  Mexican  seals,    and   I   asked 
him,    "Where  can   I   get  Mexican  seals?"    He  said,    "I   won't  give  you  my 
sources,    but  when   I  go  to  New  York*    I  will   make  arrangements  with  a 
firm  that  deals  with  these  things  and  they  will    send  you  a 
consignment.      There  you   can   buy   seals."     Then  comes  another  wonder. 
Later,   he  sent  the  seals  and   I   bought  them.     So   I  have  a  few   Mexican 
seals. 

Now,    In  connection  with  this  comes  the  other  thing:     A  jeweler 
dealing   In  gold  In  Mexico  was  supposed  to  buy  these.      I    don't  want  to 
say   his  name.     He   Is  supposed  to  be  the  greatest  collector  of   Mexican 
art,    from  all   over  that  country.     Dr.  Bulraly  had  fourteen  thousand 
Items  for   sale,    and  the  jeweler  took  everything  except  the  seals. 
Since  we  are  friends,    It  was  a  courtesy  gesture  for  him  to  send  me 
the  seal s. 

Now,    I   will   come  back  to  the  jewelry  collection   In  Milwaukee,   and 
something  that  happened  just  before  Dr.  Bulraly   died.     He  wrote  me  a 
nice    letter:    "If   you  are   Interested   In   seals,    we've  got  something 
new — seals  from  Ecuador.     When  you  pay   for  all    of   the  seals   In  the 
lot,    we'll    share  them."     So   I    got  seals  from  Ecuador. 

Huth:     Will   you  please  tell   me  what  some  of  these  seals  were  used  for? 
Gans:     Yes.      There  are  varied   uses.      I    have  a   friend,    Dr.    Wolfgang  Helmpel. 

Huth:     Yes.     He   Is  a  member  of   the   Illustrious  advisory   group  for  this  oral 
h I  story . 

Gans:     Yes.      We  were  sitting  together,    as  you  and    I   are  sitting  here,    and  he 
saw   all    of   these  seals.      He  said,    "They   are  of   great   Interest  to  me. 
Generally,   my    Interests  are  the  very  early  ones  you  mentioned  first, 
but  as  you  know,     I'm    Interested   In   everything."     So  we   said  together, 
'1_et   us   write  a   book  or   a  catalog — Comparat  I  ve  S I  g  11  I  ography."     We 
will    compare  a  seal    that   Is  made   In  Mexico  w  I  th  a   seal    In  Persia. 
And  for  what  purpose?     On  one  seal    Is  printed   In  Greek   letters,    "It's 
good  for  bel  ly  ache."    And  In  Tibet,  "It's  good  for  your  heart."     Is 
that  a  medicine  for  the  heart?     Perhaps  that's  how  they   were  used. 


1  16 


Beginning  a   Friendly  Long  Term  Relationship  with   the  University   of 
California  at  Berkeley's   Department  of  Near  Eastern   Studies 


Gans:     The  more   I   studied  these  things*    the  more   I   used  the  help  of  U.C. 

Berkeley's  Department  of   Near  Eastern  Studies.      All    of  the  members  of 
the  department  are  so  charming*   so  helpful    In  every  respect*   that   I 
decided  that  the  whole  collection  should  eventually  go  to  the 
University  here  In  Berkeley.     They  will   write  a   catalog*    so  my   name 
will    be   perpetuated  for    some  years.      And  that^s  all    I   want.      I    don't 
need  the  money. 

Huth:     WIN    your  seals  be  used  for  future  studies? 

Gans:     Only   for  their  study.     There   Is  a  special    room  for  them.      The  seals 
are  already    In  four  big  cabinets  at  the  University    In  room  770.     The 
case   Is  available  only  to  Dr.  Helmpel    and  to  me.     We  both   go  out  and 
try   to  find  new   seal    sources,    and  many*    many  students  who  study  them 
make  their  descriptions  about  them  on  file  cards*    so  each  and  every 
seal    Is  described.      It  reminds  me  of   my  quite*    quite*    quite  earlier 
experience*    when  students  came  to  me  with   coins.      They   bought  a  coin 
for  five  dollars*    and   I   told  them*    "You  pay   five  dollars  here*    but 
four  dollars  Is  for  the  label*    and  one  dollar   Is  for  the  coin."     The 
science — that  Is  what  counts. 


1  17 


XI      RARE   COINS  SOLD,    SEALS  ACQUIRED,    UNUSUAL   FRIENDS  AND  EVENTS: 
1951    TO   1978 


[Interview   11:     December   14,    1983]*! 


Salman  Schocken's  Acquisition  of   a  Rare  Greek  Coin,    His  Berkeley 
Vlslt»    and   the    Introduction  to  Norman   Davis 


Gans:      My  thoughts  wander  back  to  New   York,    and  a  rather   Important  event.      I 
received  a  telephone  call    from  a  Mr.   Salman  Schocken,    who  asked 
whether  he  could  see  my  coins.     We  made  a  date  to  meet  a  few  weeks 
before  my   move  to  Berkeley    In   1951.     Mr.   Schocken  was  a  very  well- 
known  wealthy  person,    and   I  regretted  only  that  my  acquaintance  with 
him  started  at  the  moment    I   was   leaving  New   York. 

Among  my  coin  stock  was  only  one  which  excited  his  curiosity, 
and  which,    Indeed,    was  not  only  a  very   Interesting  Greek  coin,    but 
also  a   particularly   well-preserved  and  beautiful   one.      It  was  a 
tetradrachm  of   Demetrlos  Pol lorcetes   [the  city  destroyer],   King  of 
Macedon,    337  to  283  B.C.,    which,    on  the  reverse   side,    had  the  relief 
of   Nike  blowing  a  horn  and  standing  on  a  ship's  prow.      It  was 
general ly  assumed  that  the  coin  was  a  copy   of   the  famous  bronze 
statue    In  the  Louvre,    called  the  Nike  of   Samothrace,    or  conversely, 
that  the  statue  was  a  copy  of  the  coin.     I    bought  this  coin  many 
years  before.      I   sold  It  three  times  and  repurchased  It,   always  at 
advancing  prices.      Mr.   Schocken  was  a   careful    man,   and    I,    unknown  to 
him,    showed  the  specimen  to  Dr.   HIrsch,    who  not  only  confirmed  Its 
authenticity,    but  praised   It  as  the  finest  specimen  he  had  ever    seen. 
When  closing  the  final    deal,    we  had  al  ready  become  a   I  Ittl  e  bit  more 
familiar,   and  Mr.  Schocken  told  me  that  he  loved  coins  and  that  he 
always  carried  a  few    with  him.      Out  of   his  pocket  he  pul  led  a   I  ittle 
leather  and  velvet  box  containing  perhaps  a   dozen  coins,    In  the 
center  of  which  was  the  famous  dekadrachm  made  by  the  master 
medalist,    KIMON.     On  the  reverse   It  showed  the  victorious  quadriga, 
and  below   the  exergual    line  were  the  group  of  weapons  that 
constituted  the  prize  for  the  victor   In  the  Olympic  Games.     The 
remarkable  thing  was  that  the   letters  "KIMON"  were  easily    legible  on 
the   exergual    I  I  ne. 


1  18 


Gans:  That  was  already  a  farewell,  and  I  never  expected  to  hear  from  Mr. 

Schocken  again.   I  left  for  Berkeley  a  few  weeks  later,  and  suddenly 
two  or  three  months  later,  I  received  a  long  distance  call  from 
Schocken  telling  me  that  he  was  on  a  visit  with  his  brother  In 
Seattle.  There  he  had  met  an  old  friend,  a  certain  Mr.  Norman  Davis 
who,  he  said,  was  probably  the  brightest  man  he'd  ever  met  In  his 
I  Ife. 

Among  other  things,  Mr.  Davis  was  (and  Is)  a  coin  collector. 
Mr.  Schocken  said  I  should  meet  him  and  that  he  might  become  a  good 
customer.  The  Introduction  was  made,  and  a  few  weeks  later  during  a 
visit  in  San  Francisco,  Mr.  Davis  met  with  me  and  a  connection  was 
established.   In  the  thirty  years  since  then,  this  business 
connection  became  a  slowly  developing,  deep-hearted  friendship. 

I  will  mention  Norman  Davis1  name-  In  the  future  several  times, 
but  now  let  me  only  mention  that  he  has  a  comprehensive  collection  of 
exclusively  Greek  coins,  which  he  gave  to  the  museum  in  Seattle, 
whose  vice  president  he  became. 

In  the  museum  Is  a  large  room  filled  with  a  number  of  other 
antiquities  which  constituted  his  gifts  to  the  museum.   In  other 
rooms  were  perhaps  one  hundred  paintings,  graphic  works,  etc.,  that 
he  donated  to  the  museum. 

Mr.  Davis  was  not  only  a  great  collector,  but  he  also  studied 
his  coins  and  wrote  two  books  on  this  topic.  These  were  praised  by 
serious  numismatists,  and  they  experienced  the  rare  fate  of  being 
reprinted  after  the  first  edition. 

His  coin  collection,  containing  a  number  of  great  rarities,  was 
described  in  a  volume  published  by  the  American  Numismatic  Society 
(ANS).   In  1962  he  became  the  art  director  of  the  Seattle  World's 
Fair.  For  a  simple  merchant  who  had  begun  his  career  In  England  and 
moved  to  the  United  States  In  1958,  this  was  quite  an  accompl  ishment. 
One  other  thing  I  would  like  to  mention  is  that  when  he  traveled  In 
Greece,  he  did  not  travel  as  many  people  do,  but  rented  a  car  and 
guide,  and  he  followed  the  tracks  of  Alexander  the  Great  and  his  army 
I  nto  Persia. 

I  knew  of  the  connection  between  Davis  and  Schocken,  so  I 
recently  asked  Mr.  Davis  to  write  a  letter  with  a  few  details  about 
Schocken.   I'm  asking  the  editor  of  this  oral  history  to  reprint  the 
letter  and  to  feel  free  to  edit  It  or  not  use  It.* 


See  Appendix. 


1  19 


Gans:  Mr.  Davis  wrote  at  least  five  more  books  about  his  activities  and 
thoughts  of  a  more  personal  nature.  Schocken  was  also  a  poet  and 
painted  when  the  whim  touched  him. 


Keeping  Business  Going  After   Age   Seventy;      Life  Challenges  and 
Problems  Liquidating  Coins 


Huth :     Now>    will    you  please  talk  about  your  recollections  of  the  1960s  and 
1970s*   and  about  your   growing   Interest   In   seals*   while   liquidating 
your   coin  collection. 

Gans:     Now    we  are   In  the  1960s  and  1970s.     Neither  my   wife  nor  myself  were 
In  the  robust  health   that  we  enjoyed   In  younger  years.     When  one   Is 
In  his  seventies  one  thinks  of   the  business  future*    particularly 
when  one  has  a  wife  who  Is  twelve  years  younger.      There  were  the  very 
fine  coins  from   Switzerland  that   I   already  talked  about.     There  were 
a   large  number  of  other   coins — decent,   but  not  extraordinary — and  the 
stock  of   Numismatic  Fine  Arts  which  had  to  be   liquidated  In  the 
markets.      I    purposefully   say  markets   In  plural.      It  might  have  been 
possible  that  the  markets  In  Europe  were  different  from   the  American 
markets.      I   always  dreamt  of  finding  a  successor  for  my  Numismatic 
Fine  Arts,    but    I   explained  earl ler  what  happened  to  this  dream. 


I   must  honestly  confess  that  my  memories  toward  more  recent 
times  are   less  vivid  and  more  awake  as  to  the  earlier  years  of   my 
life.     One  thing   Is  sure*    that  my    Interest   in  those  more  recent 
periods  tended  more  toward  purchases  at  London  auction  sales  in  seals 
than   in  the   liquidation  of   coins  anywhere   In  the  world. 


Working  with  Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel   on  the  Comparative  Study  of 
Seals»    and  More  on   the  Second  Numismatic  Fine  Arts 


Gans:      Independent  of  other  things  was  the  controversy  between  museums  and 
learning    Institutions.      This  had  an   Influence  on  the  price 
development  of   coins.      With  advancing  age    I    got  tired*   and   leaned 
toward  the  scientific  aspects  of   collecting.      I    had  the  great  fortune 
to  find  In  Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel   an   Ideal    study   companion  whose 
opinions  on  the  subject  paralleled  my  own.     As    I    said  earlier*    It  was 
at  some  point  In  our  discussions  that  we  mutually  fell    upon  the   Idea 


120 


Cans:     of   pursuing  "comparative  slgl  I  lography."     That   provided  a   new    task 
for  me.     This   Idea  came  naturally*   because  there  was  good  study 
material    In  the  von  Aulock  collection*    which  contained  specimens 
dated  between  4500  B.C.   and  700  A.D. 


There  was  a  void  to  be  filled   In  the  Mesopotamlan  era  and  besides* 
specimens  from  the  whole  world  stand  open  for  study.     At  that  time  we 
had  only  the  von  Aulock  collection*    but  from   now   on   I   could  look  for 
seals   from  other  countries  and  periods.      I    daresay  that   luck  was  on 
my  side*    and    I    was  able  to  acquire  other  material    which  brought  us 
closer  to  our   goal    of  acquiring  a   complete  collection. 

In  the  course  of   approximately  ten  years    I    collected  In  the 
neighborhood  of  a  thousand  seals.      This   Is  a  respectable   number* 
considering  the  difficulty    In  getting  valuable  material    from  other 
countries  and  periods. 

In  the  fol  lowing   lines*    I   will    report  what  happened  to  the 
second  Numismatic  Fine  Arts.     But  first  let  me  close  with  what    I   have 
to  say   about  coins.     Thousands  were   liquidated*    but    I   still    have  six 
coins   In  my   possession.      I   was  essentially  out  of   the  coin   business 
when    I    got  a  circular  saying  that  somewhere  a  new   business  using  the 
name  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  had  appeared. 

As    I    said  earlier,    legal    affairs  are  entirely   alien  to  me,    and    I 
was  not  In  the  mood  to  approach   this  matter  with   the  aid  of   a   lawyer. 
In  fact*    at  the  time*    the  use  of  my  business  name  had  no  meaning  to 
me.     When  two  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  can  exist*    why  not  a  third  or 
more?      In  fact*    similar  feelings  might  have  prevailed  on  the  other 
side,    because  soon  thereafter    I   received  complimentary   copies  of 
their  catalog,    nicely   bound  and  printed*    from  the  other  Numismatic 
FI ne  Arts. 

I    tried  the  sale  of   a  small    group  of   coins*   as  mentioned  above, 
that  was  handled  In  a  completely  fair  way  from  the  affiliated  firm, 
the  Summa  Galleries.     Moreover*   my  antique  jewelry  collection  was 
offered  In  an  auction  sale  In  the  finest  possible  way  on  September 
18,   1981.     Apparently  this  new   Numismatic  Fine  Arts  has   increasingly 
expanded  as  a  business.      Is  the  Summa  Gallery  at  the  same   location, 
and  associated  with  Numismatic  Fine  Arts,   growing  In  the  same  way? 
While   I   feel   a  kinship  with  these  two  enterprises,    I   have  been 
Inclined  toward  the  scientific  aspects  of  collecting  with  the 
express  notion  of  mutual   work  with  the  University  of   California — at 
the  moment  specializing   In  seals. 


121 


More  on  Felix  Tlkotln's  Visit,    and  Acquiring  and  Cataloging  Professor 
Grosse's    Seal     Collection,    about    1970 

ft 

Gans:     Now    I   would   I  Ike  to  say  a  few   more  words  about  my   friend*    Pel Ix 
TIkotln.     Over  the  years*    I   was  only  a  friend  and  onlooker*    and   I 
enjoyed  Tlkotln's  successes    In  his  businesses.     Mr.   TIkotIn*    as  a 
specialist  on  Japan*    enjoys  a  world  reputation.     He  founded  the  Japan 
Museum    In  Haifa  and   lives  now    In  Switzerland — retired*    as  he  says* 
but  stll  I    a   I  Ittle  bit  active. 

As    I    said*    It  may   have  been  ten  or   fifteen  years  ago  that    I    got 
a   call    from   him  on  a  New   Year's  Eve.     He  said  that  he  was   In 
California  just  for  a   day   and  would   like  to  see  me.      I   told  him  that 
we  were  celebrating  an  anniversary   that  night  and  that  he  should  come* 
which   he  did.    He  mentioned  that  he  had  recently  met  Professor 
Grosse's  only   daughter  who  wanted  to  sell    the  seals  and  jade  objects. 
I   asked  that  she  send  everything  Immediately*    and  said  that   I'd  buy 
everything.      He   sent  the    collection. 

Professor  Grosse  was  one  of  the  best  experts   In  Oriental    art. 
To  acquire  a  collection  of  one  hundred  Oriental    seals*    brought 
together   by   an  expert  while   living  five  years   In  China  and  Japan  was 
a  great  case  of    luck.     But  equally   so  was  the  following  story. 


More  on  the  Connection  with  Na  Chi-Liang.    Talwan»    for  Cataloging  the 
Grosse   Collection 


Gans:     As    I    said  earlier*   all    documenting  papers  prepared  by  Professor 

Grosse  were  lost*   and   I  was  faced  with  the  question:     What  to  do  with 
Oriental    objects  when  you  cannot   describe  them*    and  you  cannot  read 
the   language?      I   also  told  you  that    I   visited  a  cousin  of  mine  one 
day    In  San  Francisco*    who  told  me  she  had  just  received  a   letter  from 
a  nephew    In  Taiwan.     So   I   wrote  a      letter  to  my  cousin's  nephew,    who 
got   In  touch   with   Mr.    Na  Chi-Liang,    and  he  wrote  the  catalog. 


122 


Friendship  with   Fred   Stress,    and  Acquisition  of   Valuable  Egyptian. 
Mexican*    Guatemalan.    Ecuadorian.    Cretan,    Persian  and    Indian  Seals 


Gans:     Another   friend  of   mine   is  Fred  Stress*    a  chemist  born   In  Egypt.     He 
worked  for  years  for  the  Shell   OH    Company,    and   In  more  recent  years 
he  has  worked  at  the  University  of   California's  Lawrence  [LIvermore] 
Laboratory.     When  he  arranged  to  visit  his  parents   In  Egypt,    I   asked 
for  him   to   look  for  some  Egyptian   seals.     He  knew  one  of  the  foremost 
collectors,   and  when  he  went  to  visit  him,    he   learned  that  he  had 
died  a  short  while  before,    and  that  his  widow   wanted  to  sell   the 
collection.     So  a  second  collection  was  acquired  easily,    and  what   Is 
more   Important,   material    of   authenticated  genuineness. 

Another  old  acquaintance   lives   In   Mexico.     He   Is  supposed  to  be 
the  greatest  collector  of   Mexican  art;    I   believe  his  collection  now 
numbers  about  forty   thousand  pieces.      He  specializes   In  vases, 
figures,    tiles,    and  similar  objects,    but  he   Is  not   Interested   In 
seals.      So   It   Is   natural    that  he  would  arrange  to  have  his  friend 
[Mr.    Gans]   acquire  these   seals.      Professor  Helzer   from  U.C.    asked  the 
Mexican  friend  to  describe  the  seals.      My   friend,    Fred  Stress,    who 
was  also  a  friend  of   Professor  Helzer,    extended  his  work  and  field  to 
Mexico.     So   I    have  two  authorities  for   the  correct  descriptions  of 
the  Mexican   seals* 

ft 

In   looking   In  other   South  American  countries  for   seals,    I    found  only 
specimens  from  Guatemala  and  Ecuador.     At  the  moment  It  appears 
Improbable  that  seals  were  used   In  other  South  American  countries, 
but  that  Is  still   open  to  speculation. 

At  a  special    sale  of   Cretan   seals    I    was  able  to  acquire  some 
twenty  specimens,    Including  one  of   the  rare  obsidian   seals  which  have 
no  pattern.      It   Is  practically    Impossible  for  me  to  go  out  and  get 
Greek,   Roman,   and  Etruscan  seals  now.      I   have  a   small    number, 
Including  a   beautiful    one  from   the  collection  of   Sir  Otto  Evans,    but 
the  prices  for   these  classical    seals  were  affected  by   the  rise   In 
prices  for  Greek  and  Roman  coins.      This   Is   unquestionably   beautiful 
material,    but  not  offering  as  much   study  opportunities  as  are  needed 
for    students  from  other  countries. 


123 


Thoughts  about  this  HI  story »    Personal    Philosophy,    and  the  Miraculous 
Additions  to  the  Seal    Collection 


Cans:     Quite  recently,    I    had  the  good   luck  to  add  a  collection  of   well    over 
three  hundred  Sasanlan  pieces   [from   Persia].*      I    also  added  some 
seals  from    India  and  found  there  were  some  amusing  pieces   In  this 
collection.     These  were  collected  from  a  place  named  Mohenjo-Daro. 
These    latter  collections  are  going  to  be  discussed   In  the  next 
Interview.     Later,    I'll    also  talk  about  my  connections  with  Helen 
Stress  and  about  Alexander   [Sascha]  Liebermann,    who  was  my  friend  for 
thirty  years,    and  who   died  a  couple  of  years  ago.      I'm  also  going  to 
give  more   Information  about  my  daughter,    her  studies   leading  to  a 
doctorate,    the  sickness  of  my  wife,    and  how    I   arrange  my    life  now. 

[Interview   12:     January  4,1984]## 

Cans:      Maybe   I    began  to  speak  about   seals  too  early.      We  are  now    in  the 
1960s,   and    I    earnestly   had  to  think  of   ending  my  career  as  a 
numismatist.      In  my  mind,    I   fixed  my  eightieth  birthday  as  the 
closing  date.     The  necessity   for  doing  so  was  forced  by  a  few 
1 1  I  nesses  of  my  own  and  the  vanishing  vision  of   my   wife.      In 
addition,    there  came  to  the  foreground  a  number  of  contradictory 
developments   in  the  business  world.      I   must  admit  that   I    did  not  feel 
up  to  following  the  general    trend.     First  of   all,    for  me  art   is  not 
merchandise.     Besides,    I   judge  myself  to  be  a  good  buyer,    but  a 
miserable  salesman.      The  development  of  a  major  business  and 
collecting  corresponded  directly  with  my   dreams.     The  new  Numismatic 
Fine  Arts  was  brilliant,    and   in  a  few  years   It  joined  the  few    leading 
enterprises   In  art  and  numismatics,    being  en   par  with   the  greatest 
European  houses. 

On  my   part,    I    used  to  say   that  everything  that  happened  was  a 
miracle.      I    believe   it  was  a  French   philosopher  who  said,   "A  real 
collector   does  not  hunt  for  his  objects,   but  the  objects  come  to 
him."     Let  me  give  you  a  few  examples: 


*Sasanlan — having  to  do  with   Sasanldae,   the  dynasty   that  ruled 
Persia  from  226  to  651    A.D. 


124 


The  Valuable  Mohenjo-Daro  Seal 

Gans:     Some  fifty  or  sixty  years  ago  a  new   culture  was  discovered  In  the 

nothern   part  of    India.     One  of   the  main  places  was  Mohenjo-Daro.     An 
Egyptian  dealer  who  happened  to  visit  with  me  showed  me  a  few 
Egyptian  objects.     He  also  showed  me  a  little  velvet  box  Inscribed  as 
coming  from   an  English  collector  and  containing  a  seal    from   Mohenjo- 
Daro.     He  had  picked  It  up  somewhere  In  London,   and   I    bought  It 
because    I    liked  the  velvet  box  and  also  the  seal  —  without  knowing  the 
slightest  thing  about   It.     Now    It  belongs  to  the  great  rarities 
because   none  of   the  ancient  discoveries  are  allowed  to  leave  the 
country.      In  a  recent   large  exhibition  of   seals    I    saw  only   two 
specimens — both    In  poor   condition.     The  seal    proper   was  considered 
worth   being  described   In  a  publication   by  Professor  G.    F.    Dales   In 
the  Kramer  Anniversary  Volume  dated   1976. 


Rare  Seals  from  Thailand 

Gans:     A  comparable  event  happened  quite  recently.     There  was  a  scholar  from 
Europe  who*    throughout  her   lifetime*   made  many,    many  travels  all   over 
the  world.     She   Is  now   working  at  UC  Berkeley.     She  spent  a  number  of 
years  In  Thailand,   and  she  accumulated  a  number  of   art  works  there, 
which   she  showed  us  two  years  ago  at  a  party    In  our  home.     Among  them 
were  two  seals.     When  asked  If  she  would  part  with  them   she  only 
laughed.     A  short  time  ago  she  had  a  toothache  and  needed  money   for 
the  dentist,  and  offered  me  the  two  seals.     We  found  out  that  they 
belonged  to  a  culture  only   discovered  about  ten  or   fifteen  years  ago 
In  the  northern   part  of   Thailand,   and  which   Is  probably  older   than 
the  Chinese  culture.      The  name  of   the  culture   Is  Banchiang.      I   am 
probably  one  of  the  few  happy  persons  who  were  able  to  secure  an   Item 
from   this  culture  because  Thailand  does  not  allow  export  of  such 
pieces. 


Two  Unusual    Seals  from  China 


Gans:     My   greatest   love  was  the  Chinese  culture.      I   mentioned  the  above 

story  of   the  acquisition,   but    I   would   like  to  stress  that  the  Chinese 
culture   Is  equal    to,   or  even  beats,    the  European  culture   In  a  number 
of  respects.     There   Is,    for   Instance,    an  object  which  has  no  name   but 
deserves  a   description  here.      It   Is  a  round  bamboo  disc  of   about  two 
Inches  In  diameter,    neatly  decorated  with  a   landscape,    of  which  one 
quarter    Is  removed.      Into  this  removed  quarter   fits  a  square  seal, 
and  the  disc   Is   used  for   the  purpose  of   putting  a  seal    straight  on 
Its  object   (a  painting  or  whatever  else).      Where  else   Is  such   respect 


125 


Cans:      shown  for  at  art  work?     Another  object  In  my  collection   Is  a  piece  of 
Ivory— very   solid/    and  perhaps  eight   Inches   long,    half  an   Inch  thick, 
and  an   Inch  and  a  half  wide.      It  also  has  a  very   charming  flower 
decoration.      What   Is  the  purpose?      It   Is  just  a  wrist  rest.     The 
owner   uses   It  when  he   Is  writing  or  painting. 

it 

Huth:     So  the  owner   uses  a  work  of  art  just  to  rest  his  arm? 

Cans:     Yes.     When  he   Is  writing   It  Is  flat. 

Huth:     Maybe    It  makes   It  easier  to  accomplish   finer  writing. 

Gans:     Naturally.      That's  the  whole  thing.      Where  else — ?      Well,    In  Europe 
they   don't  write  with   a  brush,    naturally. 


Friendship  with  Professor  Helmpel ;      Lodging  the  Seal    Collection  at 
U.C.    Berkeley 

^•^™»^»"^^—        * 


Gans:     Here    I    would   like  to  Insert  a  few   words  about  Professor  Wolfgang 
Helmpel.     We  have   been  friends  for  a   long  time.     He  observed  my 
activities  and  encouraged  me  whenever  questions  arose.      I   still 
remember  a  luncheon  together  when  we  observed  that  simple  decorations 
on   seals  appeared   In  such   diverse  countries  as   Mexico,    Greece,   and 
Persia — In   different  eras,    but  not  too  far   distant  from  each   other. 
Whenever   we  got  together,   a   lot  of   new  questions  and  problems  turned 
up — but  very  few  answers  could  be  elucidated.     Very  often  we  said  a 
seal    Is  not  a   seal — but  maybe  a  calendar  or   a  medical    Instrument. 
And  so  the   Idea  ripened  that  the  collection   belonged   In  a   learning 
Institution,    and  that  there   Is  none  better  than  the  University  of 
Cal  ifornla  at  Berkeley. 

So  for  the   last  five  or   ten  years  the  collection  has  been  on 
permanent   loan  to  the  University  of  California,    and  we   dream — or  more 
than   dream — of   writing  a   complete  catalog  justifying  Its  title, 
Comparative  SIgl I lography.    hereby   creating  a   new    discipline.      I 
believe  the   transfer  of    property   (the  seal    collection)    Is  not  the  job 
of  a  near-centenarian,    but  of   his   daughter  who  Is  eager  to  follow   the 
request  of   her   father. 

New   additions  come  from  time  to  time,    and   I   hope  to  make  further 
additions  such  as  the  one  made  quite  recently — namely,    a  collection 
of   well    over  three  hundred  Sasanlan   pieces  originally  assembled  by  an 
English   lord  many  years  ago.      I   venture  the  hope  that  other 
collectors  affected  by   this  story   will    enrich  the  University. 


126 


Huth 


:     Has  anyone  else  given   seals  as  you   did? 


Gans:     No.     Naturally*    in  the  Lowle  Museum   there  are  a   lot  of   seals, 

particularly   seals  from   Mrs.   Phoebe  Hearst.     But  otherwise  not;   this 
Is  a  new   thing  and    I    don't  know   how   they   will    handle   It.      It   Is  a 
good  contribution  for  the  study  of  activities   In  other  countries,    as 
I    have  already  observed  over  the   last  few   years. 


More  on   the   "New"  Numismatic  Fine  Arts 


Gans:     The  "new"  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  Is  not  confined  to  numismatics  but 
Includes  fine  arts  as  well.      But  they   conduct  the  "arts"  under  the 
name  of  Summa  Galleries,    Incorporated.      In  an  outstanding  way   they 
have  arrived  at  the  top  and  they   are  one  of   the  few    leading  firms  In 
the  world.     The  close  cooperation  between  myself  and  my  successor   Is 
Illustrated  by   a  recent  Summa  Gallery  catalog  which  enclosed  a   little 
story  of   the  Gans  collection.      I    believe    I    do  not  disclose  a   secret 
when    I    say   that  there  were  coins  previously    In  my  collection  which 
appeared   In  a  catalog  of  Numismatic  Fine  Arts. 


127 


XII      LIVING  WITH   ASYA  AND  MUSIC:      1939  TO   1979 


Gans:      I    am   asked  to  say  a  few  personal    words  about  my  personal    life  In  my 
evening  hours.     As    I    said  earlier,   my  wife  Asya  was  a  professional 
pianist  with   a   degree  from   the  Hochschule  Fur   Muslk,    In  Berlin. 
After  our  marriage   In   1930  she  stopped  playing  professionally,   but 
our  active   life  was  filled  with  music  of  every   form — with  both  of   us 
playing  together  or  with  others  when  we  played  chamber  music. 


Musician  Friends  and  Music   In  New   York  City   and  Berkeley     ## 


Huth:     Did  you  have  friends  come  to  play   chamber  music? 

Gans:     Yes.      In  Germany   the  best   known  first  violinist  was  Hugo  Theorell,   a 
Swede,    who   In    later  years  became  a  famous  professor  and  physicist  In 
Sweden  who  was  awarded  a  Nobel   Prize.     He  was  a  polio  victim,    but 
that   did  not  hinder  him   from   visiting  every  country.     He  was   Invited 
to  Berkeley   by  U.C.    In   1956.      His  wife  was   Marglt  Theorell.      He   did 
not  fall    to  visit  with  us,    and  he  wrote   In  our  guest  book  these 
typical    words:    "Words  without  Song." 

Huth:     Where  did  you  meet  him? 

Gans:      In  Berlin.     He  was  studying   In  Berlin. 

Huth:     Was  he  part  of  your   chamber  music  group? 

Gans:     Yes.     He  came  every   week  to  play   with   us.     The  Hitler  era  came   In 

1933-1934.     At  that  time  our   daughter  was  three  or   four  years  old,   and 
we  I  ived  on  the  BIsmarckstrasse  In  Berlin,    the  most  frequented 
street   In  the  city.      All    that  happened  politically   went  through  this 
section.     The  Kaiser's  residence  was  there.     So  we   didn't  want  to 
stay  there,    and  we  moved  to  Dahlen — thafs  one  of  the  suburbs  of 
Berlin.     There  we  had  a  beautiful    apartment — only  four  rooms,   but 
they   were  the  four   guest  rooms  of   the   leading  banker   In  Berlin,    In 


128 


Gans:     his  house  of  twelve  to  fifteen  rooms.      There  we  had  a   beautiful    music 
group.     Then  we  moved  again.     Annie  Vtctorlus  was  the  sister  of   the 
cellist — she  gave  us  this   book,     [shows   Interviewer  the  guestbook] 
And  the  first  concert  was   In  March  of   1934. 

Huth:     This  guest  book   lists  what  you  played — three  Brahms  selections. 

Gans:     Yes»    three  Brahms*    and  the  pianist  was  always  either  Mrs.   Theorel  I, 

my  wife,    or  Mrs.   VI  ctorl  us—  the  sister  and  wives  of   the  players.     And 
here  you  see  the  name,    Hugo  Theorel I. 

Huth:     And  Asya  signed   It. 

Gans:     Yes»    Asya  signed   It  here.     Here  were  the  players,    and  here  were  the 
guests. 

Huth:     Did  you  play  about  once  a  week? 

Gans:     Once  every   week.     Theorel I    was  our  first  violinist  as   long  as  he 
I  Ived   In  Berl  In. 

Huth:     You  signed   It,    too.      So  six  people  played. 

Gans:     Yes.      The  three  pianists  changed  for  each  of   the   three  Brahms   pieces. 
And  the  first  violinist,    Theorel  I,    and    I,    and  Mrs.    V I  ctorl  us— pi  ay  ed 
first  violin,    second  violin,   and  viola,    respectively.      It  was   always 
the   same. 

Huth:  And  you  played  viola? 

Gans:  I    played  the  viola. 

Huth:  It   Is  clear  the  chamber  concerts  were  very    important  to  you. 

Gans:  Yes,   at  that  time. 

Let  me  move  to  our    I  Ife   In  America.     First  we  I  Ived  on  Staten 
Island.      I   had  no  work,   and  to  pass  the  time  we  occasionally   played 
music  with   friends  and  dilettantes  we  happened  to  meet. 

During  the  fifteen  years  we  I  Ived  In  New  York  there  was  no  time 
for  the  practice  of   music,    but  we  lived  between  Carnegie  Hall   and 
Radio  City,   so  Asya  had  the  opportunity  to  attend  many  concerts  and 
operas. 

In  1953   we  moved  to  Berkeley,    and  our  first  step  was  to  find 
musicians  who  could  fill    the  seats  of   the  first  violin  and  cello. 
Very  early   we  had  the  great  fortune  to  meet  Helen  Stress,    who  was  a 
member  of  the  San  Francisco  Opera  orchestra,    and  a  most  charming 
friend  throughout  our  thirty  years  of   friendship.      Her  husband,    Fred 
Stress,   also  a  close  friend,   was  a  chemist  born   In  Egypt,   who 


129 


Gans:  mastered  many  languages,  and  who  was  at  home  with  virtually 

anything  concerning  art  and  science.   In  the  last  ten  or  so  years  he 
has  worked  as  a  scientist  with  the  Lawrence  Berkeley  Laboratory  and 
at  the  same  time  he  managed  to  work  for  UC  In  excavations  In  Mexico. 
He  was  also  a  guide  for  museum  travels  to  Egypt.  He  published  many 
of  his  experiences  In  the  chemists'  magazine*  Vortex. 


Asva :  Her  Music.  Falling  Health  and  Passing  In  1979 


Gans:  The  other  friend  I  must  mention  Is  Alexander  Llebermann.  Did  I 
mention  Asya? 

Huth:  Yes.   In  her  signature  In  the  book  It  looked  as  If  she  spelled  It  A- 
s-s-I-a. 

Gans:  Yes.   Later  on  we  changed  It.   Instead  of  two  s's  she  made  It  one  s» 
because  she  said*  "I  don't  want  Assla  with  two  s's  because  It  looks 
like  'ass.'"  So  we  decided  on  the  general  Russian  way*  with  A-s-y-a. 

As  I  was  saying*  the  other  friend  whom  I  must  mention  Is 
Alexander  "Sascha"  Lleberman.   Alexander  was  always  called  Sascha. 
Sascha  and  Asya  studied  together  In  Berlin  at  the  Hochschule. 
Sascha's  teacher  was  Egon  Petrl;  Asya's  teacher  was  Leonid  Kreutzer. 
They  both  came  together  on  occasion*  but  the  real  friendship 
developed  thirty  years  later.  Sascha  went  to  Paris*  became  a  concert 
pianist,  and  after  the  war  his  former  teacher,  Petrl*  Invited  him  to 
join  him  In  Berkeley  where  he  taught  at  Mills  College.  He  was  very 
wel  I  known. 

it 

Sascha's  wife*    Steffa*    was  his  wonderful    comrade.      When  we  moved 
to  Berkeley   In  1953  we   Immediately  renewed  the  old  friendship*    which 
became  most   Intimate*    and   lasted  until    his   death    In  1978.     Asya's 
death  followed  a  year   later,   and  Steffa  suffered  a  terrible  stroke 
over   four  years  ago  and   Is  still    alive  [as  of   January   1984] — lying   In 
a   coma   In  a  rest  home   In  Orlnda.     For  four  years  she  has  been 
artificially    fed.      Isn't  that  terrible! 

During  all    these  years  of   friendship  we  made  trips  together.      We 
also  attended  his   lectures  and  his  pupils'  concerts*   where  we  made 
many  acquaintances.     The  two  ladles  telephoned  each  other  almost 


130 


Gans:      daily*   and  what  annually  became  a  pleasant  celebration  was  the 
Llebermanns1  anniversary   on  New   Year's  Eve   In  our  home.      The 
Llebermanns   did  not  have  any   children. 

Those  are  the  real    friends*    the  Stresses  and  the  Liebermanns. 
All    of   the  other  ones  were  just  acquaintances   by  comparison. 

Huth:     And  they  were  all   music  related  and  not  related  to  your  coins. 

Gans:  There  was  one  other  couple  we  met  because  of  coins*  with  whom  I  had 
broken  up  because  the  woman  was  too  terrible,  and  he  died  long  ago. 
That  was  the  one  who  helped  me  with  the  Russian  collection. 

Fred  Stress  was    Invited  by  Professor  Helzer  of  U.C.    Berkeley  to 
help  with  excavations  In  Mexico.      Professor  Heizer  and  others  from 
the  Metropolitan  Museum  of   Art  invited  him  to  go  with  them  to  Egypt. 
He  speaks  Arabic.     He  was  the  one  who  got  me  the  Egyptian  coins  and 
seals.     They   have  two  children  who  have  caused  them  much  worry. 

Huth:     Are  both  of  the  Stresses  still    living? 

Gans:     Yes.     Both   are  really   the  finest  human  beings. 

Toward  the  end  of  the  1960s  Asya  was  forced  to  give  up  the 
piano — but   certainly   not  the  music.      Friends  of   ours   loved  the  opera* 
and  these  friends*   together  with  Helen  Stress*   encouraged  her  to 
participate   In  going  to  or    listening  to  what  was  going  on  In  San 
Francisco,     There  were   Interesting   lectures  on  the  radio  about  music* 
and  none  was  missed  by  Asya.      And  now   began  my   job — I  read  books 
aloud  to  her   concerning  music*   whether   they   were  Sascha's   lectures  or 
the  correspondence  between  the  composer  Strauss  and  the  text  writer* 
Hoffmannsthal*    Stravinsky   or  others.     The  year  1978   brought  us  our 
greatest  satisfaction — the  graduation  of   our   daughter*    Lydla*    from 
U.C.    Berkeley.      She   Is  now   a  professor  of   mathematics  at  California 
Polytechnic  University    In  Pomona.     That  summer,    for   the  first  time, 
we  met  relatives  from  Buenos  Aires*    and  shortly   afterwards  Asya's 
suffering  started.       I    will    not  talk  about  the  fallings  of   the  doctor. 
I    can  only   say  that  Asya  carried  her  pain   like  a  hero  for   practically 
a  full   year.      She  had  a  radio  at  her  bedside*    and    I   can  still    hear 
her  words*    three  days   before  her   passing:    "I    don't  want  any  more 
music.11     On  August  15,    1979,    she  closed  her  eyes,    and   I    was— and   I 
am — alone. 


131 


XIII      MIRACULOUS  EVENTS,   NEW  TASKS,    PAST  REMEMBRANCES,   LOVING 
FRIENDS  AND  FAMILY:    1979  TO  1984 

[Interview   13:     January  25,1984]## 


Expanding  the  Seal    Collection:      A  Special    Location  on  the  UC  Campus 


Gans:      I    want  to  try   to  analyze  my   feel  Ings  over  the  past  twenty-five  years. 
It  will    be  understandable  that   I    got  tired  of  the  business,   being 
already    In  my   seventies.      I   had  no  heir   In  my   family   for  Numismatic 
Fine  Arts.      I   could  not  follow   the  development  of   the  coin  market 
with  my   brain  and  my   heart. 

I    carried  out  the   liquidation  of   my  coin  collection  over  the 
years  and  concentrated  on   seals.      I    was  encouraged  by   Dr.   Heimpel    as 
we  formulated  the  new    idea — "comparative  si gl I lography."     As   I 
mentioned  earlier,    I   think  It  was  the  saying  of   a  French   philosopher 
that,    "A  serious  collector  will   experience  that  the  things  he  loves 
come  to  him  and  that  he   doesn't  need  to  hunt  after   them."     Exactly 
the  same  thing  happened  to  me.     The  von  Aulock  and  the  Grosse 
collections  came  to  me.     The  same  was  the  case  with  the  Cretan, 
Mexican,    Ecuadorian,   and  Egyptian   collections.      A  good  many    I 
encountered   in  London  auction   sales. 

Huth:     Was  there  any  one  catalog  that  was  better   than  another    in  London? 

Gans:     No.     They  were  similar  and  came  regularly   every   six  months  or  every 
six  weeks. 

Huth:     That  wasn't  just  Christie's? 

Gans:      It  was   Christie's,    Sotheby's  and  other   English   catalogs.      And 
occasionally — from  Paris,    and  other   places. 


3la 


V/  w  A^^>'^^ 


c     a. 


«^  S. 

>B     3T 


?: 

II 

5   3. 


"^    —  .m.  :-a 

o»    -i.  <ft  .^                 is 

•<r    -.  2.  •«..     — 

=  =  *»       ^      _ 


^    •»  ^A    «r     -^      —      ^  '»        ^r^      — »        *>-^.  rT  • 

tf     ^=~r-       n.i.s-^^^?    <^F 

=  ^»  ^^^S^  c^ 


••     A     9 

*        »     =     2. 


n 
n 


r  2 

2     *' 

sr 


L 


I3lb 


Vier  arme  Saiten!   es  Klingt  wie  Scherz 

frale  Wunder  des  Schaes, 

Hat  doc  der  Mensch  nur  ein  einzig  Herz 

Und  reicht  doch  bin  fur  Alles  Alles! 

Grillparzar 


so  1st  xaein  Herz  voll  von  Dir, 

Mein  Eddi,  so  Liebe  ich  Dich  -  so  bleib  aucg 

Du  mir  got  Denke  meiner.  Deiner  Mutter 


20.  Sept.  1920 


English,  translation:  Translated  from  Franz  Grillparzer  (Austrian 
poet,  1791-1872)  by  Natasha  Borovsky 

Just  four  poor  strings!  it  seems  a  joke 
for  all  the  wonders  of  the  sound, 
So  has  man  but  one  heart  alone 
Which  yet  suffices  him  for  all! 


And  so,  too,  is  my  heart  full  of  you, 

My  Eddy.   Be  good  to  me  always. 

Remember  me.   My  love  asks  no  more  than 

this. 

Your  Mother 
September  20,  1920 


132 


Gans:     For  six  or  more  years  the  whole  collection  of   seals  was   deposited  at 
the  Lowle  Museum.     A  year  or  two  ago  It  was  moved  to  Evans  Hal  I   on 
the  U.C.    campus  to  a  special    room   dedicated  to  house  all    of    It, 
Including  the   library.      It   Is   located   In  the  Department  of   Near 
Eastern  Studies,    where,    naturally,    all    scholars  take  an   Interest   In 
the  material    and  encourage  their  students  to  do  the  same. 

Another  miracle  happened  again  only   last  year  when    I   was  able  to 
acquire  the  collection  mentioned  earl ler  of   over  three  hundred 
Sasanlan   pieces,    all    seals,   and  even   last  week   [January   1984]  other 
very  exquisite  material    was  added. 


Recalling   1979;      Asya's  Passing,    a  Loving   Mother,   and   Events 
From  Lono  AQO 


Gans:      I    feel    I   must  return  to  the   last  months  of  my    life  with  Asya.      It  had 
never  occurred  to  me  that    I   would  be  the  survivor.      I   was  not 
mentally   prepared  for  this.      When,    during  her   last  few   hours,    I 
kissed  her  hand  and  promised  her  that    I   would  follow   soon,    I    decided 
to  pass  on  of   my  own  free  will.     But   In  my   heart   I   had  always  some 
disdain  against  suicide,    and  even  more  Impressive  were  the  words  of   my 
good  friends  Norman  and  Millie  Dav Is,    who  cal led  me  once  or  tw Ice 
every  day,   warning  me  not  to  commit  any   stupidity,   and  telling  me  that 
I    still    had  duties  to  fulfill.      But  strangely  enough,    In  those  days    I 
had  the  picture  of  my  mother  before  me.      If    I    did  not  say    it   In  the 
beginning  of   this   Interview,    I   will    mention   It  here.      In  al  I   of   her 
married  life  she  lived  In  Hamburg  togther  with  her  only   daughter, 
until    her  end.     When  the  conditions  of   the   Inflation   In  Germany 
became  too  hard,    we  took  her  to  Berlin,    got  a   nice  apartment  for   them 
(my   mother   and  sister),   and  took  care  of   them.      My  mother  and   I   were 
very,   very  close. 

Let  me  mention  only  one  story.      When    I   was  a  boy  of  perhaps  four 
years  old   I    played  with  a   book  on  classical    mythology.      I   scribbled 
all    over    Its  pages.     She  gave  me  this  book  together  with  one  other 
book  thirty  years   later  and   Inscribed   It  just  as   if    I   was  still    her 
baby.      I    still    have  these  books  and  cherish  them.      [Gans  shows  the 
Interviewer  the  book.] 

Huth:     This  one  has  beautiful    Illustrations. 

Gans:     This  could  be  where  my    love  for  classical    art  started.      I   really    love 
th I s  book.      It   Is  ca I  I ed  Per  Qlymp  Qber   Mythologle  der  Grlechen 
und   Rnmer.    by    U.    H.    Petlscus    [Leipzig,    1980] 

And  this   Is  the  other   book,     [shows   Interviewer   a  second  book] 


I32a 


Skilmntala. 


o  u  t  i  I  i1»  il  *    3  d>  a  u  |  p  i 


T  c  it  t  i  d>  ni  i  t  r  i  f  rt>  f>  c  J  r  t  c  1 


3  T  c  i  i  i-    ^  u  f  l  a  3  r 


f  "V  JHl : 
'?!.    i' reef  h.i  u  J. 


133 


Cans:      For  the  other  book    I   have  to  explain  that  my  mother  was  an  actress   In 
her  younger  years   In  Krefeld,    In  Hamburg*    and  at  the  Burgtheater    In 
Weln  [Vienna].      I   am  proud  to  have  a  poster  from  the  year  1869  from 
the  Burgtheater    In  Weln,    and  a   book  given  to  my  mother  by  a  friend  of 
her   parents.      This   book    Is  cal led  Sakuntala.    by   the   Indian  writer* 
Kalldafa   [Leipzig,    1861].     A  Dr.    Adolph  Stern  has  written  the 
following  dedication,    which  Max  Knight  translated  for  me.     The 
translation  of   Dr.    Adolph  Stern's   dedication  follows: 

"That  which   the  genius  of   art  has  hallowed 
will    never   perish,    will    forever  thrive. 
Though   generations  fade,    whole  nations  vanish, 
Homer   and  Kalldasa  are  alive. 

The  gracious   genius  cast  a   smile  upon  you, 
he  touched  you  with   his  wand  a  special    way; 
that  he  may   shine   upon  your  face  forever, 
this   Is  my   wish  on  this,    your  festive  day. 

Is   It  the  blossom  of  earlier  years  or  the  fruits 

of  old  age  you  desire, 

Is   It  what  chal lenges,   that  which  del Ights  or 

nourishes,    gives   satisfaction, 

heaven  and  earth — do  you  wish  to  embrace  with  one  word  them, 

I'll    name  Sakuntala,   you,   and  all    that  needs  saying  Is  said."  * 

But  the  main  reason  for  mentioning  my  mother  was  to  talk  about  her 
1 1 terary    Interests. 

it 

Her   dally   saying  over  many  years  was,    "I    pray   to  my  God"  (she  had  her 
own   private  God)  "Gesund   und  Tod"   (meaning    In   good  health   and   death), 
and  her   good  Lord  fulfilled  her   prayer  one  afternoon,    on  January  24, 
1930.     She  came  home  from   her   dally  walk  and  said  to  her   daughter,   "I 
do  not  feel   so  good.      I  be  I  I  eve  I'll  go  to  bed."    Half  an  hour  I  ater 
when  my  sister  went  Into  the  bedroom,   Mother  was   lying  peacefully 
dead.      I    cannot  help  but  think  that  my   mother's   blessing  will    extend 
to  me   the   same  kind  of   passing. 


Translation  by   Max  D.    Knight,   Berkeley. 


134 


Natasha  Borovsky;      Author*    Poet*    Translator*    Frlendj    and  Helping  to 
Proofread  her   Manuscript — at  Age  92.    1979 


Gans:     Now    I   have  to  report  a  strange  event  and  even  stranger  miracles  to 
follow.     While  Asya  was  suffering  In  the  hospital*   mall    arrived  from 
our   friends*    the  Llebermanns,    who  we  knew  very  well.     They    Inquired 
about  our  health  and  activities.     These   letters  were  written   In 
Russian  and  French   with   which    I   was  not  at  a  I I,   or  very    little* 
familiar.     Asya   Immediately  told  me  to  call    up  Natasha*    saying  she 
would  certainly   do  the  translation.      Natasha   Is  the  daughter  of  the 
famous  concert  pianist*   Alexander  Borovsky.     As  a  child  of   twelve 
years  Natasha  had  studied  piano  In  Paris  with  Llebermann,    and  resumed 
the  friendship  after  both  had  moved  to  Berkeley*    where  we — and 
especially  Asya — met  her   frequently.     She   Is  an  extremely   gifted 
person*   speaks  six   languages  fluently*   and  writes  poems   In  four 
languages.      She   Is  also  the  author  of   several    Interesting  prose 
stories.      Upon  Asya's  advice    I    approached  Natasha  and   she  readily 
took  over  translation  of  our   correspondence.      Our  contact  with   her 
became  closer*    and  she  had  the  kindness  to  present  us  with  her   latest 
oeuvre*    which   she  called  Ten  Poems   for  Framing   [published   In   1979]. 

I   saw  Natasha  a  short  while   later  and  told  her,   "I   was  very  much 
Impressed  with  your  work,    but  there  was  a  printing  error   in  one 
poem."     This  she  considered   impossible,    having  asked  four   people  to 
proofread  her   work.     But  when    I    showed  her  that   In  her   poem*   'The 
Last  Supper,"  the  word  "socialite"  was   spelled  with  one  "i"  too  many, 
she  had  to  agree. 

Then  she  asked  me  to  proof   her  just-finished  prose  work,    a  roman 
[novel],    a  story   In  four  volumes  followed  by  another   story    in  two 
vol  umes. 

Huth:     Were  these  fiction  or   real-life  stories? 

Gans:      Ifs  a  reman,    a   novel  —  I  Ike  War  and  Peace  by  Tolstoy,    and   It   deals 
with   the  same  kind  of   things,    but  a  hundred  years   later. 

Huth:      Is   It  a  real-life  story? 

Gans:      Ifs  a  historical    novel.      When  she  asked  me  to  proof    it,     I 

wholeheartedly  agreed  to   It.     What  better   thing  could   I    do  in  the 
evenings,    when    I    left  Asya   in  her  hospital    room?     So   I    worked  on  this. 
When   I   started  the  job    I    became  so  engrossed   in   It  that   I    cried  out* 
'Natasha,    I    love  you."     I    got  up  from   my   chair,    went   Into  my  chapel 
(as   I   cal  I    the  corner  of   my  room,    where    I   have  the  photos  of   my   two 
late  wives),    and  they   (my   wives)  answered  me,    "You   love  her  work,    and 
not  the  person."     And  that   Is  true,    Natasha  was  and  remained  my   true 
friend.      She  married,    but  never  forgets  her   friend,    and  she  has 
called  practically   dally  for   the   last  five  years. 


135 


Cans:     Natasha's   novel    reminds  me  of  Tolstoy's   War  and  Peace,    and    I 

particularly   admire  her   wonderful    language.     This  job  took  me  many 
months*    and  our  practically  dally  meetings  gave  us  enough  opportunity 
for  conversation.      I   acted  as  a  critic. 


Meeting  Artist.   Lucy    Kaplan.    Through  Natasha:       The  Adoption*    and 
Lucy's    Daughters   ii 


Gans:     Coming  back  to  Natasha's  Ten  Poems   for  Framing,    she  told  me  that  five 
of   these  ten  poems  were   dedicated  to  the  batiks  of  Lucy  Shapiro   (now 
Kaplan).      Naturally,     I   asked  her  about  Lucy,    and  she  told  me  that 
Lucy  had  been  a  friend  of  hers  for  ten  or  more  years  and  that  she  was 
a  very  gifted  painter  who,    In  her  feelings  and  expressions  was 
similar  to  herself.     Natasha  wanted  to   Introduce  me  to  her,   and  on 
one   nice   day   we  dropped   In  at  Lucy's  place,    a  charming  place, 
decorated  all   over  with  her  work  and  with   plants.   Lucy   showed  her 
present  work  which   was,    to  say  quite  frankly,    alien  to  me.     Upon  my 
question  as  to  what  she  wanted  to  express   In  her  work,    she  replied 
with   the  word,    "abstract,"  which,    like   lightening,    cleared  up  for  me 
the  whole  of   modern   painting.      Lucy   said,    "I   wanted  to  paint  silence. 
My   problem  was  how   to  express   It.     Here  you  see  how    I  arrived  at  it." 
It  was  a  shock  for  me.     Something  new  was  opened  before  my  eyes,    and 
I    simply   had  to  follow    into  this  opening.      It  became  a  new   art  for 
me.      Now    I    understood  the  painting,    and    I    understood  Natasha's  poem, 
"Silence    In    Ye  I  low." 

Huth:     That  was  the  title  of  one  of   the  poems? 

Gans:     Yes.      Now    I    understood  Natasha's  poem   and  the  painting,    "Silence   in 
Yellow."   [see  text  on  next  page] 


35a 


Silence  in  Yellow 


silence  in  yellow 

stillness  aglow 
nothing  is  stirring 

no  green  things  grow 
house  in  the  desert 

flat-roofed  and  square 
austere  habitation 

monastically  bare 
suggestion  of  Mexico 

siesta  and  heat 
aloof  yellow  hermitage 

radiant  retreat 
brown  windows  and  doors 

what  lies  behind? 
mysterious  corridors 

into  the  mind? 
the  straight  and  the  arched 

symbolic  asymmetry 
compositional  riddle 

secret  dichotomy 
brown  tendrils  creeping 

fissures  on  cloth 
relievers  of  monotone 

softening  flaws 
house  in  the  desert 

enigmatic  yet  known 
numinous  haven 

spiritual  home 
stillness  in  yellow 

silence  alight 
luminous  solitude 

my  soul's  delight 


Natasha  Borovsky-Hidalgo* 

on  the  batik  by  Lucy  Shapiro 


£& 


'  Borovsky,   Natasha,   Ten  Poems    for  Framing    (Berkeley,    California, 
19791.    self-nublisherl. 


136 


Cans:     The  artist  applied  maybe  a   dozen   different  kinds  of  yellows.      I    was 
able  to  acquire   It  and  bought  the  painting*    which  together  with  the 
poem  hangs  over  my  bed.     And  silence   Is  floating   like  an    Imaginary 
conception  of   peace  when    I   am  resting   In  bed. 

In  a  second  visit   I    saw   another   batik  called*    "The  Beginning." 
It  showed  the  archangel    Michael*    and  In  the  foreground*   Adam  and  Eve. 
But  here   the  artist's  conception  shows   Michael*   not  with  a  finger 
threatening  Adam  and  Eve  with  expulsion  out  of  paradise*   but  Instead* 
guiding  them   Into  the  world  and  protecting  them  with  outspread  wings. 
I    feel    this  peaceful    representation   Is  much  more  Impressive  than  the 
rather  cruel*    older*    more  generally  accepted   Idea.       From   then  on    I 
saw   Lucy   more  and  more*    and   I   was  able  to  acquire  a  number  of   graphic 
pieces.     And  when   she  started  painting   In  oil    I    got  her  first 
landscape*    and  particularly    Important  for  me*    her  self-portrait  made 
from  a  photograph  taken  when   she  was  twelve  years  of  age. 


Lucy — An  Adopted  Daughter 

Gans:     Lucy    Is  separated  from   her  husband.     She  has  two  wonderful    children, 
two  girls  who  are  both   students  at  the  present  time.      She  has  gone 
for  years   under  her  maiden  name,    Lucy   Kaplan.     From   the  beginning   I 
was  attracted  to  her*    because  she  reminded  me  frequently  of   my   first 
wife*   with  whom   she  has  many  similarities.     These  similarities 
Induced  me  to  ask  her    If    I    could  adopt  her  as  my   daughter.     She 
agreed*    and  so    I    now    have  two  daughters  and  five  grandchildren. 
Lucy's   daughters  are   named  Justine  and  Meagan. 

And  the  wonderful    thing   Is  that  both  my   daughters*    Lydla  and 
Lucy*   as  well  as  the  three  children  of  Lydla  and  the  two  children  of 
Lucy,    love  each  other   so  closely   that  Lydla  considers  the  adoption  as 
the  best  thing  that    I   ever   did   In  my    life.     She  says  she  always 
wanted  to  have  a  sister.      And  all    the  children  are  as  close  to  each 
other  as  could  be. 

Huth:     That's  very    fortunate  that   It  worked  out  that  way. 

Gans:      I   cannot  close  today  with  better  words  than  these,    and  with   the 

reproduction  of   Lucy's  work  that  first   Impressed  me  so  much,    and  does 
so  even  now — every   day. 

I    can  only   speak  of   my   personal    feelings.     This  was  the  first 
time — perhaps  not  even  the  first;    I    contend   It  was  the  first,   and 
Lucy   says   It  was  the  second  time  that    I   ever  saw  the  archangel.     And 
I    see  silence  floating.     Silence.     Peace.     That  Is  what   I    wanted  to 
write.      When    I   am    In  bed  every   evening*    particularly    in  the  night*    I 
see  something  floating*    silence  floating. 


36a 


Origins 


when  man  derived 

from  passing  things  the  concept  time 

sorrow  arrived 

love  was  born 

when  man  of  loneliness  felt  in  his  flesh 

the  thorn 

in  the  throes 
of  pain 
fear  arose 

with  pleasure  anguish  came 
desire  with  despair 
with  striving,  strain 
loss  with  gain 

evil  of  will  and  violence 
not  of  the  wily  serpent  sprung 
guilt  of  right 
not  wrong 

of  sin  the  seed  /'^^k 

In  greed  ™ » 


Natasha  Borovsky-Hidalgo* 


Borovsky,   Natasha,   Ten   Poems    for  Framing    (Berkeley,    California, 
1979),    self-published. 


137 

Huth:     That's  a  very   good  time  to  have  that  happen. 

Gans:     Yes. 

Huth:      It  sounds    like  a  meditation. 

Gans:     And    I    do  my   meditation  very  often.      Thafs  about  all    that    I   have  to 
say  today.      I   have  two  more  close  friends.      I   didn't  mention  Carol 
Eisenberg — she   Is  a  pianist — and   I    didn't  mention  Roslyn  Jamieson,    she 
Is  studying  art.      It's  not  the   same    Intimacy   of   feeling. 

Huth:     Are  these    like  members  of   your   family? 

Gans:     Lucy    Is   like  my  real    daughter,    really.     And,    as  to  Natasha — always 
when  we  were  together  during  the  first  two  years,    I   wished  to  marry 
her.     And  she  said,  "I  wish  to  cal  I  you  my  father."     I   said,  "I   can't 
call   you  my   daughter."     It's  a  different  feeling. 

Lucy   Is  very  much   like  my  first  wife.     And  what  happened — I 
showed  you  my   scrapbook — I    have  maybe  five  or  six  literary  scraps 
from  the  hand  of  my  wife,   my  first  wife.      I  remember  that  we  went  for 
a  walk,    Lucy   and   I,    and  we  talked  about  everything*    and  finally  she 
said*   "In  everything   In   life  you  should  decide  what  the  heart  wants 
you  to  do  and  not  your  brain."     And  that  day    I   came  home  and   I   was 
just  looking  through  my  scrapbook,    and  there    I    stumbled  over  a   note 
from   my   first  wife,    a  quotation  from  Goethe's  Faust  with  the  words 
"gefuhl    1st  a  I  les."  meaning   "feeling    Is   everything."     Exactly    the 
same   words   as  Lucy   used,    "feeling   is  everything."     The  heart   Is 
everything,    not  your   brain.      So  Lucy    Is   like  a  daughter  would   be  [of 
his   first  wife,    Paula]!     They   are  so  similar.     On  that  day   the   Idea 
of  adopting  came  to  me. 


More  About  Natasha,    Lucy,    and  Lucy's  Daughters 

Gans:      I   consider  that  my  two  closest  women  friends  are  exceptional.      I   have 
two  women  who  are  close  to  me,    who  w  II  I   be  something  more  than  the 
ordinary    In  their  fields — Natasha   in   literature  and  Lucy   In  painting. 

Huth:      I    think  that's  very  obvious    In  their  work.      It's  very   beautiful. 

Gans:     They   are  not  the   usual    writer  and  not  the   usual    painter.      Natasha's 
novel    will    work  out  to  be  something  great,    like  Gone  With  The  Wind, 
I  Ike  War  and  Peace.*     And  when   I    could   In  one  small    way   help  a   little 
bit  through   friendship,    I   have  done  what    I    could. 


*Natasha  Borovsky,    A  Daughter   of    the  Nobility.      New   York:     Holt, 
Rlnehart,    and  Winston,    1985;   London:     Viking/Penguin,    1986. 


138 


Gans:     Lucy    Is  now   forty-five.      I'm  sure  she  will    create  more   paintings. 
When  she  first  met  me  she  told  me,    "It's  my  ambition  to  create 
something  for  posterity."     When    I   met  her  she  had  a  very   nice  house 
on  Mar  In  Street*    and  she  was  doing  a  I  I    these  things  In  her  terrible 
garage.     Can  you   Imagine   It?     Ordinary   garage*    small,    dirty — 

Huth:     Probably   very   dark. 

Gans:     Without   heat,    naturally*    and  everything.      Thafs  where  she  worked* 
where  she  did  these  batiks.     And  she  supports  her  two  children  only 
with   her   painting.      I    don't  know   whether  the  father  gives  something 
for  the  kids.     The  oldest*    Justine*    is  now   twenty  years  old.     She 
will    be  an  actress.      She   Is  so  wonderful  —  I   can't  tell    you. 

Huth:     She  wants  to  be  an  actress? 

Gans:     Not  only  acting*    everything   In  the  theater.      She  refused  to  take  a 
vacation   last  year*    and  she  went  to  the  theater  school    In  Peterboro* 
New  Hampshire*   to   learn   lighting  and  directing.     She  wants  to  be  a 
dlrectoi — to  do  everything. 

Huth:     Where  does  she  go  to  school? 

Gans:     Tufts  College.      Tufts  College   Is  supposed  to  have  the  best  theater 

school.     And  the  youngest  one,    Meagan,    probably  wants  to  be  a  writer. 

Huth:      Is  Meagan  about  eighteen  now? 

Gans:     Yes.       I    don't  mind  showing  you  a    letter    I    got  yesterday   from   her. 
[Gans  shows  the   Interviewer  the   letter.] 

Huth:     And  she  wrote   It  with   writing  big  enough   for  you  to  read!     That's 

nice,      [reads   letter]     She  says  she's  studying  German    literature  and 
reading  one  of   Goethe's  novels.      Do  you  have  any   more  to  say  about 
Lydia's  children? 

Gans:     Lydia's  children  are  all    grown  up  now.      Laurie   Is  a  musician.      She 
plays  viola  In  the  Santa  Rose  Symphony  orchestra  and  gives  chamber 
music  concerts.      She   lives   In  a  house  that  she  built   In  Forestvllle. 
Gregory    Is  a   doctor.     He   Is  just  finishing  his  residency    In  family 
medicine   In  New   Jersey.     He   Is  married  and  has  two  children.     Nina 
lives   In  San  Francisco.      She  Is  studying  for  her   Master's   degree  and 
dances   ballet,    and  her   husband   Is  studying  for  a  Ph.D.    In 
anthropology  at  U.C.      They   have  one  child,    so    I    have  altogether   three 
great-grandch 1 1 dren. 

it 


Lucy  Kaplan  (Edward  Cans'  adopted 
daughter),  as  a  teenager,  ca.  1951. 
Drawing  by  South  African  artist  Edgar 
Toussait  van  Hove. 


Edward  Cans  recovering  from  a  long  depression. 
Drawing  by  Lucy  Kaplan  after  their  second 
meeting  in  1981. 


Lucy  Kaplan  (Edward  Cans'  adopted  daughter),  with  her  two  daughters  (Edward  Cans' 
adopted  grandchildren),  Justine  and  Megan,  ca.  1982. 


Lydia  Cans'  three  children  (Edward  Cans'  grandchildren) 
ca.  1977. 


Laurie,  Gregory,  and  Nina, 


139 

A  Need  to  Be  With  People 


Cans:     Don't  forget,    I   was  together  with  Asya  twenty-four  hours  a   day   for 
thirty  years   In  this  house,   and  fifteen  years  before  that.    In  New 
York — a  total    of   forty-five  years.      We  were  here  In  the  U.S.    since 
1938.     For  a  year  we  were  on  Staten   Island.      I   had  an  office  with  my 
partner  on  Madison  Avenue  from   1940  to  1954,   some  fourteen  years. 

Huth:     That's  a   long  time. 

Gans:     Yes.      And  for   that  reason    I   cannot  be  alone.      Alone   Is  terrible.      All 
the  friends,    they   all    come.     Lucy   works  over   there   [points  to 
studio/workshop   In  his  yard]  and  takes  care  of   the  garden.      One 
Interesting  point   I   want  to  make  Is  that  when  Natasha  says  she   Is 
coming   In  half   an  hour,   she  may   arrive   In  an  hour.     When  Lucy   says 
she   Is   coming  at  4:00  and  she  can't  make   It   she   calls  at  3:55   and 
says,    "I    will    be  there  at  4:10."     That   Is  the  difference  between 
these  two.      [laughter]     All    people  are  different. 

Huth:     Thafs   right.      Does  Lucy   use  the  studio?      You  constructed  a   studio 
here  on  your   property. 

Gans:     Yes.      Practically   every   day. 


More  on  Lucy   Kaplan's  Work  and  Daughters:     Meagan  and  Justine 

Gans:     Now  Lucy    Is  working  at  the  jail    In  Martinez.      She  has  a  job  there. 
Huth:     She's  teaching  art? 

Gans:     She   Is  teaching  the   Inmates,    and  she  even  remembers  to  bring  her 
music.      And  the  people  are  so  converted  now.      They   say,    "We    don't 
want   rock-'n-rol  I,    we  don't  want  jazz.      Bring  us  Beethoven;    bring  us 
the  classics." 

Huth:  She  plays  the  music  while  they   work  with  their  painting? 

Gans:  Yes,   while  they  work.      That's  only   been   done  recently— a  new    Idea. 

Huth:  And  that's   In  Martinez? 

Gans:  In  Martinez,    yes.      She  works   In  Martinez   four   days  a  week. 

Huth:  And   Is  that  al  I    day? 


140 


Cans:     On  Monday*   Tuesday/    and  Wednesday   for  half  a  day.     She  Is   also 

working   In  a  hospital    as  a  therapist.      Before   I    met  her  she  was  a 
therapist  for  five  years  at  the  Kaiser  hospital    In   Martinez*    from 
three  o'clock   until    midnight.      Terrible  hours.      She  had  a  very   poor 
father*   and  no  real    family.     Then   she  had  the  dlsappiontment  with  her 
marriage.     So  I  was  able  to  give  her  a  lot  of   love.     That's  al  I.     And 
the  children  and  mothei — you  can't  believe  how   wonderful    It   Is.      All 
these  three  together*    Ifs  absolutely   wonderful  1      So  she  has  that 
love  of   her  children  as  a  substitute  for  many  other  things.     Both 
children  are  absolutely  exceptional. 

Huth:      Is  Meagan   In  college  yet*   or   Is  she  still    In  high  school? 
Gans:     She   Is  a  student   In  Santa  Cruz. 
Huth:     At  the  University  of  California? 

Gans:     Yes.      For  half  a  year   now.      Justine   Is  now    In  the  second  year  at 
Tufts  Col lege. 

Okay*    so*    In  other  words*    I    feel    justified  that   I    left  Asya 
waiting  for  me  [meaning  that  he  continued  to   live  a  meaningful    life]* 
because    I    did  something   useful    for   six  new   people.      And  that's  good. 
I   don't  have  any  regrets.     And  I  can  do  a  I  Ittle  bit  for  the 
University  of   California. 


More  on  the  Berl In  Years  and  the  Summer  House  for  Bank  Emol ovees 


Gans:     Oh.      I    have  to  show   you  my    letter,     [goes  to  find   letter]     When    I 
talked  about  my  banking  affairs   I   could  have  said  that  we  were 
Interested   In  real    estate*   that  we  had  the   Important  bank  property* 
but  that's  absolutely   unimportant.      What   Is    Important   Is  that    I 
bought    In  a  suburb  of  Berl In,    Saarow,    a  vacation  spot*    a  recreation 
place  for  the  employees  of  our  bank,    where  they   could  bring  their 
families.       I   also  had  a  confidential    doctor   [psychiatrist]  engaged* 
where  they   could   go.     So   I   had  my  employees'  welfare   In  mind. 

Huth:     That's  very   progressive. 

Gans:      In  Saarow.    I    bought  a  big  house.      I   think   It  had  twenty-two  or 
twenty-five  rooms*   where  the  employees  could  spend  their  summer 
vacation  according  to  a  reservation  schedule. 

Huth:     And  did  they   use   It  a   lot? 

Gans:     Yes.      And  they  went  to  the  confidential    doctor. 


141 


Lvdla  Gans— A  Remarkable  Dauahter 


Gans:     Now    I   will    talk  about  Lydia*    my   daughter.     She  Is  a   late-bloomer. 
When  she  was  young  she  was  very  pol  Itlcal  ly  minded.     She  married  a 
Negro.     She  was  always  for  the  underdog   In  every  respect.     She  was 
her   own   person.      She   didn't  want  to  be  guided  by   her   father's 
Inf I uence. 

Huth:  A  lot  of  young  people  are  that  way. 

Gans:     She   Is  crazy   for  travel.     She  was   In  China*    In  the  Himalayas*    In 
Spain*    In  Egypt*    In  Cuba.      Every  year   she  goes  once  or  twice  to 
foreign   places.      She   likes  to  make  new   acquaintances.      If    I    die 
tomorrow,    you  have  enough  I      [laughter] 

Lydla   Is  a   professor.      Now    she   Is  a   senator.      She   Is  getting 
ready    for  that.      Now   she   Is  getting  mature. 

Huth:      You   said  she   Is  a   senator? 
Gans:      In  the  university. 
Huth:      In  the  academic  senate? 

Gans:     Yes.     California  Polytechnic  University.     Her  mother   and   I    were  more 
for  art  and  the  humanities*    and  she   Is  strictly   for  science.      Then 
Lucy   and  Natasha  are  both    In  the  humanities.      That's  fortunate. 


142 


XIV     THE  STORY  ABOUT  THE  SASANIAN  SEALS,    THE  NEW   NUMISMATIC  FINE 
ARTS,    PAST  COLLECTING,    AND  THE  RENAISSANCE  MEDALS 


Acquiring  the  Sasanlan  and  Portrait  Seals,    1984 

Huth:  I    see  you  have  some  clay   there.      Are  you  working   In  clay? 

Gans:  Yes.      I   am  making   Impressions  of   the  seals    I've  got. 

Huth:  Are  these  seals  on  this  tray   that  you've  brought  out? 

Gans:  Yes. 

Huth:  Do  you  want  to  give  me  any   details  about  the  seals? 

Gans:     Yes.      I   will    tell   you  the  story  just  for  your  amusement.      It's  a   long 
story.      It  started  with   Dr.    David  Stronach.      Do  you  know   Stronach? 

Huth:     Yes.      Did  he  help  you  with  this  acquisition? 

Gans:     He  came  to  the  Berkeley  campus  as  a  newcomer,    and  he  got  a   letter 
from  Christie's   In  London  that  they  would  have  a  collection  of 
Sasanlan   seals   In  their  next  auction.      Since  he  was  not   Interested, 
he  left  It   lying  on  his  desk.      When  Helmpel    came   Into  his  room   by 
chance,    he   said,    "I    have  a    letter   here,    they're  having  an   auction." 
Helmpel    naturally  came  and  told  me  about  It,    because  there  we  could 
buy   seals.     Then    I    said  to  Helmpel,   "With  my   hearing  problem   and  all 
that,    It's   better   If  you  make  the  telephone   call.       I    can't  hear   so 
well."     And  he  telephoned  Christie's,    and  Christie's  told  him  that 
the  col  lection   belonged  to  Lord  so-and-so,    and  that  he   died,    and  that 
his  daughter  will    sell    them.      They  were  particularly   Interested  In 
having  their   collection  remain   Intact,    In  one  group.      We   said,    "Yes, 
we  will    buy   them,    and  what  will   the  price  be?"     I   think  It  was  valued 
tax-wise  at  f  Ive-to-elght  thousand  dollars,    or   something   like  that. 
"All    rlght,"l    said,    "I    will    pay    five  thousand   dollars  and  the  rest  we 
will    see."     We  were  also  to  get  the  cabinet   In  which  they  were 


Edward  Cans  in  his  100th  year  with  his  daughters,  Lydia  and  Lucy,  in  1987. 


143 

Gans:      stored,   and  a  catalog  that  the  owner  had  written.     Okay,    now   the 
auction  came,    and  we  got  four   lots  of  three  hundred  twenty-nine 
seals.     But  there  was  a  fifth   lot  with   portrait  seals,    and  a   dealer 
In  Hollywood  bought  that.     Naturally,   Helmpel    and   I    were  very 
disappointed,    because    I   have  enough  Sasanlan  seals,    but  portrait 
seals    I    have  never  seen.      But  we  couldn't  do   It.      It  was  done.      What 
could  we  do?     Then  they  didn't  want  to  give  us  the  cabinet,   so  we  put 
the  seals   In  our  own  cabinet.      So  that  was  a   disappointment. 

Louis  Paooas  and  the  Portrait  Seal s 


Gans:     The  other   day   a  friend  of  mine,    a  Mr.   Louis  Pappas, *  an  art   dealer 
and  a  wonderful    businessman — visited  me. 

Huth:      Is  his  business   In  San   Francisco? 

Gans:     Yes.       In  San  Francisco.      He  was  going  to  Los  Angeles,    and  he  said  he 
would  try  to  see  this  fellow   and  try  to  find  out  about  the  portrait 
seals.      I   paid  fifteen  dollars  apiece  for  the  Sasanlan  seals,    and  he 
paid  a  hundred  dollars.     So  the  portraits  are  more  valuable.     We 
hoped  Pappas  could  persuade  him  to  give  these   up  at  the  original 
price.     Then    I   would  have  bought  one  or  two  of  the  portrait  seals.      I 
was  aware  he  may   have  already   sold  them.      Everything  was  possible. 

Huth:     But  perhaps  you  also  thought  he  might   like  to  have  some   In  this 
collection   go  to  the  university. 

Gans:      Yes,    for   the  university. 

Now,     I    have  another   story   about  portrait  seals.      A  Mr. 
Carravache,    or   something   like  that,   a   collector  of   seals,    approached 
Getty   with   his  collection.      Getty**  sat  down  and  picked  out — from 
over  one  hundred  seventy   pieces — these   nine  portrait  seals,   which    I 
later   acquired  from  Getty.      And  then  Getty   said  that  maybe  the  Lowle 
Museum  could  buy  the  other  seals.     So   I    called  Lowle,    and  Lowle 
people  also  came.     The  Lowle  Museum  bought  some  one  hundred  forty 
other   seals,    and    I    bought  these  seals.      So  the  fellow    Is  happy   that 
he  got  rid  of  all   of  them.     Lowle   Is  happy  that  they  got  seals,    and   I 
am  happy   for   the  university   that   I    got  another  thirty-one  seals, 
which   just  filled   In  the  gap  of   the  three  hundred  twenty-nine  we  had. 
I    don't  need  the  one  hundred  forty   acquired  by  Lowle.       I   have   them 
already.      So  everybody    Is  happy   now.      And  that   Is  the  story. 


*Louis  Pappas  passed  away    In  1983. 

**0fficlals  at  the  J.   Paul   Getty   Museum,    Mai  Ibu,    California,    on  the 
estate  of   J.    Paul   Getty  who  died  June  6,    1977. 


144 


Gans:     Anyway*    now    I   have  three  hundred  twenty-nine*    plus  thirty-one — three 
hundred  sixty  seals*   and  Wolfgang  Helmpel    Is  so  happy*   because 
before*    I   had  only  fourteen  Sasanian  seals   In  my  big  collection. 

Huth:     As  to  the  Sasanian  seals*    where  are  they   from    In  Persia? 

Gans:     From  the  Acamanlan  dynasty,    from  the  time  of  the  Persian  Wars,    Darlos 
and  Xerxes  and  a  I  I    of   those  people  that  went  back  to  about  two 
hundred  B.C.      Then  came  the  Parthlans*    and  then  came   the  Sasanlans, 
and  then  came  the — in  between  are  always  the  battles  between  all   of 
these  peoples  and  Rome.     And  then   came  the  Arabs*   who  chased  out  the 
Sasanlans. 


Obtaining  Clay    Impressions  of   the  Seal    Collection 

Huth:     Will    these  seals  be  catalogued  along  with  the  others  at  the 
university? 

Gans:  Yes.     We  also  got   impressions  for  the  three  hundred  Sasanian  seals. 

Huth:  I    saw   those   In  He  Impel 's  office. 

Gans:  Now*    I   will    try   to  make  an   Impression  here*    If    I   can  do   It — 

Huth:  The   Impressions  help  you  to  study   the   detail? 

Gans:  Yes.      [Gans  goes  about  making  an   Impression] 

Huth:     Were  the  ones  that  were   In  Professor  Heimpel's  office  also  cast? 

They   were  white.      They    looked  as   If  they   might  have  been  plaster  of 
Paris. 

Gans:     They   were  white.     That  was  the  old-fashioned  way*    with  chalk  and  so 
on.     Then  this  was   Invented. 

Huth:     And   It  stays  soft? 

Gans:     No. 

Huth:      It  gets  hard. 

Gans:     That   Is  the  wonderful    thing.      I   make  a  plate  out  of    It.      I    use  a 
rolling  pin.      [he  continues  to  work] 

Huth:     And  you  roll    It  out  flat. 


145 


Gans:      Yes.     And  then   I   press  1 t,  as   I   did  here.     Then   I  put  this  piece  in 
my  oven*    and  warm    it  up  to  one  hundred  fifty   degrees  for  thirty 
minutes.     Then   It  Is  hard*   and   I   can  send  It  out. 

Huth :      It's  probably  more  permanent  than  plaster*    stronger. 
Gans:     Yes.     And  that  Is  now  my  job  for  the  next  days. 
Huth:     Until    you   do  al  I    thirty  of   them? 

Gans:      Yes.      That   is  the  most  unpleasant  thing — to  make  these   Impressions. 
These  four   here  are  made  out  of  VInegel.      It  comes   like  that.     And    I 
believe    I   have  a  big  supply.      I  once  bought  twenty  kilos*   and  the 
firm   ttiat  made    it   In  England   doesn't  exist  any   more.      So   It   Is 
val uabl e. 

Huth:     What   is   it  cal led? 

Gans:     VInegel.      I    got   It  from   Edith  Porada.     The  firm  that  made   It»    Vinetex 
Ltd.*    In  Surrey*    England*    doesn't  exist  any  more. 


More  on  the  New   Numismatic  Fine  Arts;     Bruce  McNal  I's  Successful 
Pea  I  ersh  1  p  //# 


Gans:     This  book   Is  about  the  work  of   Numismatic  Fine  Arts.      It  describes 
the  ancient  coin  collection  of   the  Hunt  brothers.      That   coin 
dealership  has  a  million   dollars  alone  from   the  Hunt  brothers' 
business,      [shows  a   book  on  the  collection] 

Huth:     And  that's  all    put  out  by  this  firm? 

•  ' 

Gans:      Yes,    all    put  out  by   this  firm. 

Huth:     Thafs  spectacular.      The  name  of   this  book   is*    The  Wealth  of  the 
Ancient  World.     And  this   Is  the  Hunt  collection. 

Gans:     That's  the  Hunt  collection. 

Huth:     And  they  have  that  collection   In  Beverly  Hills  at  the  Summa 
Gal lerles? 

Gans:     They   assembled   It.      They   stand  behind   It.      When  they   have  a  big  deal 
they  can  go  to  Mr.   Hunt  for  help.      I   would  never  have  had  such  a 
connection  as  Bruce  McNal  I    had*    never  this  way  of   handling  things. 
I   am  not  a  businessman.      I   am  more  for   university-related  works*    and 
he   Is  for   big  money   and  the   Investment.     For  that  reason*    It   is 
important  for  him  to  say*    "I    am   the  owner  of  an  old  firm."     And*    if 


146 


Gans:     he  has  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  and  continues  the  story*    then  he   Is  the 
new  owner  of   an  old  established  firm.      And   I   feel    he  should 
acknowledge  that*    and  that  was  what   I   wrote  In  my   letter  to  him»    but 
I    didn't  send   It. 

Bruce  McNal  I    Is  a  very,   very   smart  businessman.     He  started  out 
small   and  now  he  works  with  the  Hunts.     Now  he  has  married  a   lady   who 
was  a  professor  at  USC>    she  also  wrote  the  catalog*    and  we  are  al  I 
friends.      Lydla   Is  a  friend  of  Jane  and  Bruce  McNal I. 

Huth:     How  old   Is  Bruce  McNal  I? 
Gans:      I  would  guess   under  forty. 

Huth:     There's  a  newspaper  clipping  about  him    In  your   scrapbook  that 
somebody   sent  you. 

Gans:     Yes.      A  friend  of  mine   In  Los  Angeles  sent  me  that. 


SIgmund  Morgenroth  and  Son;      Source  of   Useful    Coins 
[Interview  14:     February  9,    1984]## 

Gans:     When  one  enters  his  seventies*    one   Is  prone  to   look  back  to  see  what 
happened  In  the  past  and  what  has   been  accomplished*    and  at  the  same 
time*    make  plans  for   the  future.      When   looking  back*    there   Is  one 
event  which   I   purposefully  did  not  mention  at  the  time*    because   it 
ended  with   an  affair  which  was  of   great   importance  for  me  personally. 

I    have  mentioned  the  name  of   Dr.   Lederer  frequently*    as  a  close 
friend  and  a  purveyor  of   most  of   my  antiquities  and  coins  collected 
In  Germany.     Phillpp  Lederer  was  born   in  Bamberg*    a  medieval    city    In 
southern  Germany   famous  for  the  Bamberger  relter.      Thafs  a 
sculpture.     Another  Bamberger  family  was  the  Morgenroths.     One  member 
of   this  family*   SIgmund  Morgenroth*   became  a  wealthy    Industrialist  in 
Frankfurt*    and  an  ardent  collector  of  Renaissance  medals* 
archeologlcal    objects*    and  many  other  things.     Probably   prompted  by 
his  friend*   Lederer,    SIgmund  Morgenroth  visited  me  In  New   York  City 
during  the  early  period  of   World  War    II.      He  offered  me  a  collection 
of   perhaps  five  thousand  coins — I    should  not  have   said  "collection", 
perhaps  "accumulation"  Is  better.      It  was  possibly  the  stock  of   a 
firm   given  as  collateral    for  a  financial    affair*   and  now   Mr. 
Morgenroth   wanted  to  get  rid  of    It. 


147 


Gans:      Mr.    Morgenroth's  son»    Charles  Morley   (all    the  sons  of   Mr.    Morgenroth 
had  changed  their  names)*   was  an  art  and  coin   dealer    in  a  style 
similar  to  mine*    except  that  he  was  wealthy  and  more  Inclined  to  deal 
with   substantial    art  works  than  smal  I    coins.     He  had  refused  his 
father's  coins  because  he  considered  them  junk  that  was  unsaleable. 
My   attitude  was  different.     Having  my  own  German  collection  and  the 
Nussbaum  collection  as  fine  material*    this  addition  might  serve  now 
or   at  some   later   time  as  material    for  the  beginner.      It  contained 
many   unpopular  Items*   and  was  the  source  of   pleasant  studies   In  the 
evening  hours.      When  my   student  collectors  came  and  paid  five  dollars 
for  such   Items    I   told  them  explicitly,   "Never  forget  that  you  paid 
one   dollar   for   the  coin   and  four   dollars  for  the   label." 

Not  too  long  ago,    erstwhile  students — and  now   professors  at 
universities  and  curators  at  museums — confirmed  to  me  personally  that 
they   never  forgot  this   lesson. 

My   relationship  with  Charles  Morley  was  very   friendly*    but  he 
moved  back  to  Europe  at  an  early   date.     He  was*    by  heart,    more  a 
sportsman,   and  he  enjoyed  his   life  and  sports   In  Switzerland.      His 
father  had  moved  to  California  and  had  a  beautiful    home  In  Santa 
Barbara.      I    was  able  to  renew   the  relationship  when   I   also  moved  to 
California.      More  about  that   later. 


The  Decision  to  Move  from  Coin  to  Seal    Collecting  at  Aoe  Seventy-Five 


Gans:     When    I    was  seventy-five  years  of  age  there  were  fleeting  thoughts  of 
the  past.      My  main  concern  was  how   to  handle  the  future.      My  only 
daughter,    Lydla*    had  become  a  professor  of   mathematics  at  the 
California  State  Polytechnic  University.      I   had  no  other  heirs  to 
continue  my   business.     As    I    said  earlier,    for  a  short  while   I 
considered  a  newly  established  dealer   In  southern  California  to 
become  my   successor.      I    let  him  set  I    some  of  my  coins  and  even 
trusted  him  to  buy   some  of   my   seals  at  the  London  auction  houses. 
But  soon,     I    found  that  some  of  these  activities  were  manipulated—to 
say   the   least — Incorrectly.      I    completely   discontinued  any 
relationship  with   him. 

This  was  the  time  of   ever-rising  prices   In  the  1960s  and  1970s. 
It  was  easy  to  dispose  of   my   coins  over  those  years — In  Switzerland, 
Germany,    and  England,    and  through   some  dealers  here   In  this  country. 
Naturally*    this  tendency  of  the  coin  market  was  as   pleasant  as   It  was 
unexpected.      At  the  same  time,    it  became  food  for  thought.     Coins 
became  an   Investment  material*   an   Idea  which  was  alien  to  me  and 
which    I    was   unable  to  handle  mentally*    and    I   say    It  quite  frankly* 
f I nanclal ly. 


148 


More  on   the  Sasanlan   Seals.    U.C.    Berkeley»    and  the  Propriety   of 
Importing  and  Exporting  National    Treasures 


Huth:     WIN   you  please  tell   me  more  about  the  acquisition  of   the  Sasanlan 
seals  and  how  they  will   be  studied? 

Gans:      I   think  It  was  natural    that   I    decided  to   limit  my   Interest  to  seals, 
and   I   have  mentioned  that  this  splendid  material    came  to  me  with  the 
support  of  Professor  Helmpel.     He  became  a  close  friend  and  we  shared 
Ideas.      I   remember  a  moment  of  a  conversation  where  we,    almost  at  the 
same  moment*    said  we  had  to  compare  the  products  of  one  country  with 
those  of    another. 


And,    at  that  moment,    the  term,    "comparative  slgl  I  lography"  was  born. 
Since  then   I    centered  my  attention  on   Individual    pieces  of   unusual 
origin,    but  this  does  not  exclude  the  purchase  of    Individual 
collections  from  one  country  or  another.      So,    as    I   have  explained,    I 
have  recently  acquired  a  group  of   about  three  hundred  fifty   Sasanlan 
[Persian]  seals  representing  all    known  types  and  of   special    Interest 
to  scholars   In  the  Department  of   Near  Eastern  Studies  at  the 
University  of   California  at  Berkeley.      Professor  Gobi    In  Vienna,    who 
Is  my   close  friend,    has  written  a  book  on  Sasanlan  seals.     All    of 
this  brought  me  to  an  ever  closer  connection  with  U.C.    Berkeley.      The 
collection   Is  now   housed   In  a  special    room   next  to  the  Department  of 
Near  Eastern  Studies.      It   Is  and  should  remain  on   permanent   loan  to 
U.C.   Berkeley.      My   daughter,    the  real    owner,    will,    I   assume,    carry 
out  my  request  to  make  a  gift  of    it  to  UC,    and    I   assume  Professor 
Heimpel    will    fulfill    his   Intention  to  write  a  catalog  for   it.* 

This  brings  me  logically  to  a  topic  much   discussed   In  recent 
years.     The  promulgation  of    laws   In  many  countries  prohibits  the 
export  of  excavated  material.     And  the  corresponding   laws   In 
receiving  countries  prohibits  purchases  by   museums  and  collectors, 
and  demands  the  return  of  such   goods.      It   Is  a   difficult  controversy 
to  decide  —  which   side  has  the  more   Important  rights. 

Huth:     How   do  you  feel    about   It? 

Gans:      I    personally  side  with  the  university   because  every  bit  of  knowledge 
extracted  from  the  object  proper   needs  all    of   the   Information 
possible  about  the  surroundings   In  which   the  object  has  been  found. 


*The  catalog   Is  being  researched  and  compiled  by  Professor  Gultty 
Azarpay,   of   the  U.C.   Berkeley   Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies. 


149 


Gans:     Worthwhile  objects  are  kept  In  the  storerooms  of  the  museums.      I   have 
heard  a  figure  of   ten  times   larger  than  the  exhibited  objects.     Why 
not  arrange  loans  or  travel   agreements  with  other  museums   Inside  and 
outside  the  proper  countries?     And  on  the  other   side,   travel    to  other 
countries  Is  now  so  facilitated  that  visits  to  those  local   museums 
have  become  a   new   attraction. 


The  Study   of   Renaissance  Medals 


Gans:     While  the   I  Iquldatlon  of   my  erstwhl  le  stock  contl  nued  automatical  ly, 
as  mentioned  before,    the  growth  of  my  seals  collection  also  continued 
automat  I  cal  ly . 


The    Impressive  Morgenroth  Collection 


Gans:     There   Is  one  event  that  took  close  to  five  years  of   my   time.     This 
happened   In  a  strange  way.      We  were  visiting  our  daughter   In  Los 
Angeles.     On  the  way   back  to  Berkeley  we  stopped   In  Santa  Barbara, 
after  having  reestablished  the  connection  and   I    daresay   friendship, 
with  SIgmund  Morgenroth.    as    I   mentioned  earlier.     He  was  an 
Interesting  personality.     His  collection  of   Renaissance  medals  was 
really  outstanding.     He  had   It  on  exhibit  at  a  museum   In  Chicago, 
hoping  the  museum  would  acquire  It  after  their  curators  wrote  a 
catalog,    but  nothing  came  of   it.     At  some  point  he  withdrew   the 
collection,    and  at  each  visit  he  showed  me  some  of  the  Individual 
Items.     While   I    knew   the  Dreyfus/Kress  collection   In  Washington  and 
Individual    items  from   Dr.    Jacob  Hlrsch,    the  Morgenroth  collection  was 
still    impressive.      It  was  housed  In  a  glass  case  so  that  It  could  be 
admired  from   all    sides,   and  Mr.   Morgenroth's  personal    stories  were 
very  enhanci  ng. 

it 

It  prompted  me  to  learn  more  about  Renaissance  medals.      In  my    library 
at  that  time    I   had  only  Georg  Hablch's  The  Story  of  the    Ital  Ian 
Medals.      It's  all    In  this  book,      [shows  a   book  to  the   interviewer] 


150 


The  Gans  Study  of  Goethe's  Renaissance    Italian  Medals 

Huth:     That's  your   book  on  Goethe's    Italian  medals. 

Gans:     Yes.     This    Is  Goethe's  original,    and  here   Is   Max   Knight's 
transl atlon. 

Huth:     And   It's   Illustrated  with  old  drawings.      Where  were  they   taken  from? 

Gans:     They   are  from  Goethe's  original    plates.      I    got  photos  of   every   medal 
Goethe  owned.      Anything  you  want  or  that  the  Bancroft  Library  would 
consider  of    Interest  you  can  request.      We  can  always  talk  about   it, 
and  there   Is  good  will    on  my   side. 

In  Hablch's   short   preface  he  quotes  a  beautiful    saying  of 
Goethe:      [paraphrases]     Everybody   should  on  every   day  read  a   little 
chapter  from   the  Bible,    listen  to  some  beautiful    music,    and   look  at  a 
few  medals.     And  later  on  he  remarks  that  Goethe  himself  wrote  a  very 
Interesting  article  on   his  own  collection.      I    had  never  heard  of    It. 
I   had  never  read   It.      In  my  edition  of  Goethe's  complete  works,    they 
did  not  show   any  title  referring  to   It,    and   I    couldn't  find  any 
reference  to   It.     From   then  on  my  curiosity  was  aroused.      I    did  not 
cease   until    everything  was  cleared  up.      I   think  It  was  Hablch  himself 
who  mentioned  that  Goethe's  article  had  appeared  In  the  Jenalsche 
Allemelne  LIteratur  Zeltung  vom  Jahre  1810  [General   German  Literary 
Magazine  of  the  City  of  Jena,    Jan/Feb/Mar  edition],    and   It  was  signed 
"W.K.F." — Welmarer   Kunst   Freunde    (Weimar   Friends  of   Art).      For   many, 
many  years  Goethe  had  a  friend,   Helnrlch   Meyer   (the  Saxonlan 
description  of   this  person  was  Der  Kunscht — that's  the  dialect,    not 
Kunst  but  Kunscht),    whom  Goethe  often  consulted   In  questions  of   art. 
Naturally,   this  was  not  unilateral    Information,   but  a  real 
conversation  where  often  Goethe's  observation,    even  though  he  was  a 
layman,    had  more   Importance  than   Meyer's  contribution.      Goethe's 
friendship  with  Meyer — or  you  could  call    It  "general    politeness" — led 
him  to  sign  the  article,    not  with   his  name,    but  with  W.K.F.     This   Is 
not  the  only  article  with  this   signature.     There  are  a  number  of 
others.     Those    I    found  are  of    little   Importance. 

I   started  correspondence  with   libraries  and  universities   In  this 
country.      Some  had  a  few    issues  of  the  Jenalsche  Al  lemelne  Literatur 
Zeitung,   but  there  was  not  a  single   Institution  that  had  the   desired 
issue  from  1810. 

Then,    In  Germany,    I   started  with  Hablch's  working  place — Munich. 
There  was  no  copy  of   this   Issue.      Finally,    I    located  a  scholar   In 
Germany  who  drew  my  attention  to  an   Institute  In  Weimar,   the  city 
where  Goethe  had  I  Ived  most  of  his  adult   I  Ife,    and  where  his  house 
still    exists.      There    I    found  perhaps  the  only   surviving   Issue  from 
1810.      (Weimar   Is   located   in  East  Germany.) 


151 


Gans:      I   started  my  correspondence  here  and    I   was  very  happy   that    I 
encountered  a  willingness  to  cooperate. 

Huth:     That  was  a  major  research  effort.     How  did  you  proceed  after  that? 
it 

Gans:     First*    I   got  a  microfilm  copy  of  Goethe's  article*   and  that  was  the 
basis  from  which  to  proceed.     Then    I    Inquired  as  to  whether    I   could 
get  photos  of  Goethe's  collection,    and  they   were  readily  supplied. 
For  Renaissance  medals,    the  exact  slxe   Is  of   great   Importance,   and   In 
any   scientific  catalog,   the  diameter    Is  given   In  millimeters. 
Unfortunately,    the  photos  sent  first  were  of    Incorrect  size,   and  the 
whole  photographic  job  had  to  be  redone   In  exact  size.      The 
bureaucratic  handling  of  this  matter  In  Weimar  was  excruciatingly 
painful.      They   did  not  have  airmail.      Everything  went  by  ordinary 
post.      Even  the  smallest  postage  had  to  be  paid   In  advance  according 
to  special    Instructions. 

It  was  rather  time-consuming,   but  at  the  same  time,    I  was  able 
to  observe  a  willingness  to  help.     So  the  whole  matter  was  completed 
I n  a   pi easl ng  way. 

Now    I   had  to  work  on  the  material   proper,   and  I  had  to  establish 
the   usual    "notes"  that  are   Important  for  a  scientific  catalog  of 
Goethe's  medals.      Next   came  the  problem   of   translating  Goethe's 
German    Into  English,   and  for  the  translator,    Max  Knight,    It  was  a 
problem   as  to  whether  this  should  be   done   In  Goethe's  style  or  a 
modern  style.      Max  Knight  chose  the   latter  way   because  he  believes 
the  book   Is  addressed  to  the  American  reader  who  should  get 
acquainted  with  Goethe.     Unfortunately,    the  German  reader   Is  not 
acquainted  either,    and   In  a  short   introduction    I   tried  to  explain  the 
reason.     Now,    fifteen  years   later,    I  must  admit  to  some  bad   luck  with 
this  translation  of   Goethe's  work.      In  spite  of   the  fact    It  has  been 
honored  with  praising  words  from  the  greatest  numismatists,   Hablch   In 
Germany,   and  Hill    In  London,   the  deserved  esteem   and  general 
knowledge  of   this  work's  value  has  not  arrived   In  Germany. 

Huth:     When  was   It  published? 

Gans:     This  book  was  published   In   1969.     About  one  hundred  copies  were  sold 
In  the  first  month,   very   few    in  the  next  year,   and  thereafter    I   heard 
that  the  publishing  house  had  been  sold.      I   considered  my   duty   to 
Goethe  was  fulfilled.      I   was  not  Interested   in  any  material    follow- 
up.      At  some   later  time  gossip  had  It  that  two  more  publ  Ishing  houses 
became  the  owners  and  that  the  last  one  went  broke.      What  happened  to 
the  unsold  copies — I    do  not  know.      They   may   still    exist.      I 
personally  feel    that  the  numismatic  content  has  a   certain  value  that 
was  recognized  by  Professor  Scwabacher,    who  reviewed  It  In  the 
Hambergersher   (the  most  renowned  German   paper),    July  20,    1978. 


152 


Gans:     Some  five  years  were  filled  with  this  pleasant  activity — Goethe  was 
always  close  to  my  mind  through  my  early    learning  from  my  mother  and 
my  first  wife  Paula.     Goethe  was  also  the  first  ever  to  write   In  a 
scientific  form   about  the  medalists  of   the  Renaissance  period.      It   Is 
natural    that  scientists  one  hundred  years   later  arrive  at  different 
attributions — but  whether  these  new   attributions  will   still   be 
recognized  a  century  from  now    is  an  open  question.      We  still    should 
respect  the  attempts  of   a  first-comer*   Goethe. 


153 


XV      MORE  ON   SEALS  COLLECTING  AND  VIEWPOINTS  ON  THE  PAST  AND  FUTURE, 
1983  TO   1985 


[Interview   15:     6  May   1984311 


[Edward  Gans  made   several    additions  to  this  history   without  the 
Interviewer   Interjecting  questions.] 


Thoughts  on   Deteriorating  Eyesight  Following  Surgery,    and  the  Last 
Trip   with   Asya    In   1961 


Gans:      In  August   1983,    I    had  my   second  cataract  surgery,    which   unfortunately 
developed  Into  a  degeneration  of  the  retina  and   I   am  now   partially 
blind.     Fortunately,   the  good  God  allows  me  to  see  my   neighbors,   my 
family,    the  green  gardens  and  woods  and  streets.      I    cannot  see  my  own 
fingernails  and    I    cannot  read  or   write.      I    have  to  do  with  what  Is 
left  and   I   have  to  be  thankful    for   It,    although    I   must  do  without  the 
usual    tti  I  ngs    I   was  accustomed  to  doing. 

Earlier,    I   talked  about  the  second  trip  to  Europe   In  1961    that 
my   wife,    Asya*    and    I    undertook.      The  reason  for  the  trip  was  to 
participate  In  the  Numismatic  Congress   In  Rome  and  the  meeting  of   the 
IAPN    In  Rome  at  the  same  time. 

It  was  a  pleasure  to  meet  old  friends  again,    and  three 
particularly   lively  events  are  still    In  my  mind.     One  was  a   dinner 
given   In  honor  of   the   IAPN   by   the  Santa  Maria  brothers   In  the  Castle 
of   the  Angels — I    don't  remember  the   Italian  name.     The  second  was  an 
afternoon  reception  held  by  GIsela  RIchter,   the  former  curator  at  the 
Metropolitan  Museum  of  Art  In  New  York  City.     The  third  was  a  visit 
with   our  old  friend,    Irene  Lande,    a  writer.     She  died  tragically   a 
few   months   later   In  a  hospital.     With    Irene  and  her  husband,   Ernst 
Nash,    we  really   saw   Rome.     He   Is  probably  the  best  connoisseur  of   the 
old  Rome,    and  he  Is  the  author  of   the  great  book  mentioned  earlier 


154 


Cans:     and  titled,    Pictorial    Dictionary  of   Ancient  Rome.      It  was  the  book 
I    described  as  having  been  published  by  the  German  government  In 
three   languages:      Italian,   German  and  English. 

As   I    said  earlier,    our  trip  also  took  us  to   Istanbul    where  we 
met  with  our  old  friend,   Hans  von  Aulock,   who  at  that  time  sold  us 
what  was   left  of   his  great  collection  of  seals,    which  fortunately 
turned  out  to  be  the  best  part. 


More  Recol lections  on  Moving  to  Seal s  Col  I ectl ng  and  Problems 
Liquidating  the  Coin   Dealership 


Gans:     An  old  saying  comes  to  my  mind.      It  must  have  first  come  to  me  In 

Germany   seventy  years  ago  when,   at  a  funeral,   a  rabbi    said  the  words, 
•The   life  of   men   lasts  seventy  years,   or    It  goes  to  more,    perhaps 
eighty."     That  Is  the  period   In  my    life  about  which    I   will    now 
report. 

It  was  time  to  think  about  what  to  do  with  the  rest  of  the  years 
ahead.     Observing  the  early  1960s    I    could  see  the  constant  rise   In 
prices  for   ancient  coins.      Also,    one  does,  not  buy   "for   sale"  material 
when  one   Is  about  to  give  up  any   kind  of  a  business. 

What  became  clear  to  me  was  that  slowly  but  surely  the  coin 
business  would  take  on  a   different  shape.      It  would  not  be  the 
friendly    leaving  of   a  good  piece  with  someone.      It  would  become  an 
Investment  with   business  chances   In  every   direction.     And  that  Is 
contre  couer  [against,   or  opposed  to  the  heart]    . 

It  became  clear  to  me   I   had  to  I  Iquldate  my  material    and  retire 
from   any   kind  of   business  dealings.      In  retrospect,    it  was  not  so 
easy. 

As    I   said  earlier,    I   had  met  a  new   dealer  who   I   believed  was 
understanding  and  capable.     He  had  been  a  teacher,    and  he  was 
familiar  with  history   and  the  old  way  of    life.      I   gave  him  a  few 
pieces  for  sale  which  he  disposed  of  quite   decently.      Strangely 
enough,    while   I   had  some   I  Iking  for  his  way  of  deal  Ing  w  Ith  a  coin, 
neither  my  wife  nor  several   of  my  friends   liked  him.      In  an  earlier 
Interview    I    gave  a  short  report  about  him   In  which    I    left  this 
gentleman  nameless.      I   already  told  you  that  his  services  were  not 
very   satisfactory.     He  not  only   sold  coins  for  me,    but  he  also  bought 
seals  at  London  auction  sales  which  were  very   frequent  at  that  time. 


155 


Gans:     Later  on    I   had  sales   In  Europe*    which  for  one  reason  or  another  were 
not  completely   satisfactory.      Somehow*   on  the  face  they  were  destined 
for   unpleasant  actions.      It  was  not  a   sale  but  an   unpleasant 
liquidation  of   material*   and  It  gave  the  appearance  of   not  being  a 
pleasant  coin  deal   but  an   unpleasant  Investment  affair  for  gamble  and 
speculation.      I   had  to  take   It   In*    but  at  the  same  time   I   couldn't 
sit  still.     Now    I   started  to  replace  my  coins  with   seals  which  still 
had  a   decent  market. 


More  on  Sources   for   Seals 


Albert  Baldwin 


Gans:      I    entertained  a  friendly   relationship  with  the  London  firm  of 

Baldwin.     Mr.  Al  bert  Bal  dw  I  n,   who  I   dare  say  was  a  friend*    bought 
seals   In  various  auctions   In  London  over  the  years — Interesting 
materials  from  the  same  sections   I   bought  from*   and  which  fit  very 
well    Into  what   I   had  already  assembled.      I  remember  a  very  fine  group 
of  Cretan  coins  from  a  specialized  collection  of  a  London  collector 
and  former  consul    In  Crete,    which  he  selected  with  great  taste  and 
understandl ng. 


Fred  Stress 

Gans:     Another   friend    I    told  you  about    In  another    Interview   was  Fred  Stress, 
who  was  originally  a  chemist,   and  familiar  with  virtually  everything 
In  the   line  of   science.     He  works   now   at  the  University  of   California 
at  Berkeley's  Lawrence  Laboratory.      I   told  you  he  was   born    in  Egypt. 
Through   him    I   acquired  a  very    Interesting  group  of  Egyptian  seals 
which  were  of  especially   good  quality. 


156 


More  Thoughts  on  the  Changing  Coin  Market 


Gans:      I  would  like  to  start  this  new  chapter  In  a   different  way.    so   I   will 
begin  as  follows:     As    I    said  earl ler,    In  my  youth    I   often  heard  the 
saying,   "The   life  of  men   lasts  seventy  years  and   In  rare  cases   It  may 
extend  to  eighty  years."     Now    I   was  already    In  my  middle  seventies 
and  I  thought  I   should  concentrate  on  the  Idea  of  my  passing  away   In 
the  future.      I   had  only  two  heirs — my  wife  and  my  daughter.      It  was 
relatively  easy  to  make  my   deposition  of  my  assets   In   my   will.      First 
would  come  Asya — and  after   she  passes — Lydla.      I    should  talk 
principally  about  coins,    because  all    of   my  collection  was  already   In 
the  name  of  Asya  and  myself.     The  main  problem   was  what  was  happening 
to  coins.      When  we  came  back  from  Europe,   at  that  time  and  In  the 
following  years.    I   observed  a  constant  rise   In  prices.      Nothing  could 
be  objected  to   In  that,    but   I   thought,    'How    does   It  happen,   how    long 
will    It   last,    and  what  will    happen  In  the  future?" 

As  a  former  banker,    I   soon  recognized  that  coins  were  following 
the  general    art  market  which  had  become  simply  an   Investment,    and  not 
a  hobby  any   more.     For  me.   the  conception  of   coins  as  an   Investment 
was  and   Is  disgusting.      I    love  coins;    I    love  each    Individual    piece. 
I've  had  personal    contact  with  each  of   them.      Their  history  meant  a 
lot  to  me.     And  now    I   was  being  asked  to  consider    It  (my   collection) 
like  an  old  Ford,    or   like  Ford  or  General    Electric  stock  shares.      It 
simply   went  against  my   grain.      I   had  to  find  Individual    dealers  here 
and  In  Europe  who  took  over   part  of   the  collection  on  consignment  for 
auction   sales  or   for    Individual    sales  or  what  not.      To  tell    the  truth, 
my  experiences  In  many  cases  were  not  pleasant  ones.      It   Is  not  only 
the  coin  market  that  has  completely  changed  from  a  loving  hobby  to  an 
Investment.     Even  the   persons  connected  with   It  have  changed — their 
character   has  changed.    It  had  become  simply  a  business  for  them,   and 
all   means  to  a  desired  end  were  accepted  by   them.     Our  old  fashioned 
moral-ethical    Ideas   didn't  always  find  a  place.      In  order  to  make 
money  with   this  new  material,    everything  was  considered  ethical. 

All    my    life,   especially   my    life   In  this  country.    I   considered  as 
a  very  pleasant  activity.      I    do  not  want  to  tell    too  much  about  what 
happened   In  this  respect,    and   I    leave  this  section  anonymous  from  A 
to  Z. 


157 


Another  Miracle — The  Seals  Collection 


Gans:      Finally*    whether  a  few   dollars  more  or   less  were  left  was  not 

so   Important  for  my  estate,    as  such.     Much  more  Important  for  me  was 
the  other   side  of    It  that    I    call    seals.       I    simply   couldn't   sit   still. 
I   had  to  have  a  new  occupation.      It  started  with  the  seals   I  got  from 
Hans  von  Aulock.     Edith  Porada  gave  me  her  great  help.     Somehow*   one 
seal    came  after  the  other*    and   I   must  say  that  I  can  almost  cat  I   the 
growth  of   the  seal    collection  a  miracle.     Later*    I   will    give  the 
story   about  how   these  seals  came  to  me*    and  the  reader  will   also 
perhaps  bel leve  that  a  miracle  was  working  and  an  outer  force  wanted 
me  to  go   In  this  direction. 

I    will    start  with  the  following  story  that  began  with  coins  and 
ended   In  seals.     There  was  a  certain  Mr.  Otto  Frank  who  was  a  great 
Industrialist   In  Milwaukee.      He  was  a  serious  collector  of  coins  who 
had  good  taste  and  a  great   Interest.      Mr.    Frank  was  also  a  trustee  of 
the  art  museum    In  Milwaukee*    and  his  Interest   In  the  arts  was 
widespread.      From  me  he  got  Impressive  Greek  and  Roman  coins*    and 
once  he  asked  me  to  assemble  a  complete  set  of  Roman  cast  copper 
coins — the  first  Roman  coinage  consisting  of    six   Items  from  an  "s" 
down  to  an  ounce.     After  a  number  of   months    I    could  offer   Mr.   Frank 
this  complete  set*  and  he  sat  down  to  write  an  article  about  It. 
This  article  was  published   In  the  magazine   issued  by  the  museum  (the 
name  slips  my  mind  at  this  moment).      Mr.   Frank  kindly  mentioned  my 
name    in  his  articles.     Another  article   In  the  magazine  concerned  a 
series  on  seals.      It  was  written  by   the  director  of   the  Milwaukee 
museum,    a   Dr.    Borage. 

Dr.    Borage  mentioned  a   number  of    different    Issues  of   seals  and, 
to  my  great  surprise,    I    learned  that  seals  had   been  made  and   Issued   In 
Mexico.      That  was  completely  unknown  to  me,    because  until    then   I 
thought  seals  were  confined  to  Europe. 

I   asked  Mr.    Frank  to  put  me   In  touch   with  Dr.   Borage,    which  he 
kindly   did.     Dr.  Borage  reacted   In  a  most  friendly  way — promising  me 
that  the  next  time  he  went  to  New   York  he  would  try  to  find  some 
Mexican  seals.     He  stuck  to  his  word,   and  a  few  months   later  a  firm 
in  New   York  sent  me  eighteen  Mexican  seals  on  consignment.     These 
seemed  to  me  to  be  worthy  of   collection  and  very  attractive.     However, 
I    thought  they   had  very    little   In  common  with   European   seals. 


158 
More  on   the  Comparative   Collection  with  Wolfgang  Helmpel 


Gans:      I   will    Interrupt  this  train  of  thought  now  and  mention  a  personal 
connection  with  Professor  Ann  Kilmer*   who    I    know    from   the  U.C. 
Berkeley   Department  of  Near  Eastern  Studies.     She  brought  me  together 
with   her  colleague*    Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel.     He  Is  of  German 
origin  so  we  have  much  In  common*   and  a  friendship  between  Mr. 
Helmpel    and  me  developed  very   fast.     One  time,    while  sitting  together 
we  talked,    saying,   'Nere  are  seals  from   Mexico.     Here  are  seals  from 
Egypt.     Here  are  seals  from   Mesopotamia.     Evidently   seals  are  known 
the  world  over,    so  shouldn't  we  try   to  compare  them?"     We   decided 
that  from   now  on    I   would  look  for  countries  and  cultures  that  might 
have   Issued  seals   In  a  certain  historical    epoch.      Wolfgang  encouraged 
me  and  helped  me  every  way   possible. 

In  the  early  years  of   our   collaboration    I    got  catalogs  mainly 
from  London  and  Paris   dealers.      I   very  often  found  coins  that  fit 
Into  the  series  from   Mr.   von  Aulock.     These  were  somehow  related  with 
Near  Eastern  seals  as  they  were  represented   In  the  von  Aulock 
collection.     Once   In  a  while  exceptions  came. 


Seals  from  Crete  and  Ecuador 


Gans:      I    had  to  thank  Mr.   Albert  Baldwin,    from  the  London  firm  of  Baldwin 

and  Sons,    for  one  exception.        An  English   consul    from  Crete  had   died. 
He  had  a  collection  of   Cretan  seals.     Cretan  seals  were  much 
earllei — all   of  the  second  millenlum — and  Mr.  Baldwin  said  the 
collection  contained  a    lot  of    Interesting  pieces.      Eventually,    he 
picked  out  about  twenty  seals  which  he  assembled  and  bought  for  me   In 
one  or  two  auction  sales.      So  a  new  country.    Crete,    was  represented 
and  there  was  one   particularly  rare   Item. 

The  connection  with   Dr.    Borage    In  Milwaukee  lasted  for  a  couple 
of  years.     Once  he  wrote  me  a   letter   stating  that  he  could  get  a 
small    set  of   seals  from   Ecuador,    but  unfortunately  he  had  no  money  to 
pay  for  It.     So   I   made  him  the  usual    proposition  that    I   would  pay   for 
the  whole  collection*    and  that  Borage  could  divide   It   Into  two 
shares — one  for  the  museum  and  one  for  me.     Naturally,    that  was 
agreeable  for  both   parties,    but   unfortunately*    not  much    later,    Mr. 
Borage  passed  away    In  a  car  accident.     Later    I   will    mention  Borage's 
successor    in  another  connection. 


159 


More  on  Felix  Tlkotln  and  the  Grosse  Col  lection 


Cans:     Now    I   come  to  the  most  pleasant  story  of  all.      I   want  to  add  more 
about  buying  the  Grosse  Collection.      It  concerns  our  most   Intimate 
friends  here   In  Berkeley.    Professor  Alexander  "Sascha"  Llebermann  and 
his  wife.     They   were  married  on  the   last  day  of   the  year   1920,   and 
they   always  celebrated  their  anniversary  at  our  home.     Every  year   It 
began  with   a  very   pleasant  dinner  that  started  at  eight  o'clock  and 
ended  at  ml dnlght. 

I   have  already   said  that   In  the  year   1965    I   got  a  call    from  an 
old  friend,    Felix  Tlkotln.      I   explained  that  there  was  no  competition 
between   us  and  everything  could  be  good  friendship.     He   Informed  us 
shortly  after  we  became  good  friends,   perhaps   In  the  next  year,   that 
In  the  year   1928  he  would  have  a  great  exhibition  of  the  collection 
of   Professor  Grosse   In  Freiburg  and   In  Brelsgau   southern  Germany. 
Now    I   will   tell   the  expanded  story  of  Professor  Grosse.     As   I    said, 
his  specialty  was  Oriental    china  made   In  China*    Japan,    and  Korea.     He 
had  one  benefactress  who  collected  objects  of  art  from  these 
countries  and  who  asked  him  to  get  the  finest  and  the  best  for  her 
col  lection. 

In  the  year   1907  she  even  asked  Mr.    Grosse  to  go  to  the  Orient. 
His  first  trip  was  to  China   (It  may  have  been  to  Japan).        Anyway,    In 
that  same  year  he  married  a  Japanese  girl,    and  he  stayed  over  there 
until    1912.     He  came  back  to  Germany   with  objects  of   art  of   all    kinds 
from   all   of  these  countries.     His  Excellence  von  Bode,    so  to  say,    the 
"emperor"  of  all    art  In  Germany,    asked  him  to  become  the  director  of 
the  Chinese  Museum    In  Berlin,    but  he  politely  refused.     He  replied, 
"I   will    gladly  collect  for  you.     You  can  always  have  a  choice  of  what 
I    consider  valuable,    but   I  am  not  the  kind  to  be  an  employee." 

The  war  came  In  1914,   and  after  the  war  he  decided  to  go  back  to 
the  Orient.       I    don't  know   the  date  of   his  return,    but  he  brought  back 
many  objects  of  art.     A  few  years   later  he  died  and  his  widow 
approached  my   friend,    Felix  Tlkotln   (we  always  called  him  "Tiki")  to 
ask  him  to  arrange  an  exhibition  and  a  sale  of   the  art  treasures, 
mainly  the   large  ones,    because  she  had  to  find  a  smaller  home.     So 
the  art  pieces  were  arranged  In  his  exhibition  rooms  on  the 
Kurf urstendamm  Ca  major  shopping  street]   In  Berlin,    a  magnificent 
exhibition  of   perhaps  thirty  or  forty   paintings,    screens,   and  similar 
art.      This  was  a  very   good  transaction  for  the  widow,    as  well   as  for 
'Tiki."     I   almost  bought  a  beautiful   winter   landscape,    but  It  was 
beyond  my   means  at  that  time. 


160 


Gans:     We  met  regularly*    and  the  good  "Tiki"  had  another   collection* 

too — a  collection  of   wine  bottle   labels.     For  every   good  wine  he 
drank  he   loosened  the   label    and  put   It  on  the  wall    of   his   kitchen. 
Incidentally*   he  was  proud  that  he  was  born   In  the  year   1893*   the 
best  wine  year   In  the  whole  century. 

TIkotIn  recognized  Hitler's  coming.      Because  of   this*    he  went  to 
Holland*    to  Switzerland*   and  to  America.     He  escaped  everything — and 
finally*   he  was  the  founder  of   the  Japan  Museum    In  Haifa*    Israel*   to 
which  he  gave  a  great  part  of  his  art  object  stock  and  his  own 
col  lection. 

It  was*    as    I    told  you  before*    the  31st  of  December   In  1965  when 
I   got  his  telephone  call.     He  said*    "I   am  here.      I   have  come  from 
Japan.      I   am  on  my   way   to  Switzerland  and   Israel.      I   want  to  say 
'hello1  and  hear  what  you  are   doing."       I   told  him   that   we  were  just 
celebrating  our   friends'   anniversary   and  to  please  come  over  to 
celebrate  with  us*   which  he  gladly  did.     During  the  evening  he  told 
me  about  the  smal  I    objects  and  seals  to  be  sold.     There  were  two  jade 
objects.      There  were  Netsuke.     There  were  seals  and  a   little  bit  of 
porcelain.      Tiki"  said  he  kept  the  Netsuke  and  the  porcelain  for 
himself*    leaving  the  seals  and  jade.      I    cried  out*    "And  that   Is  just 
what    I    collect.      Send  everything  there   Is."     So  al  I    of   a  sudden    I    got 
probably  the  finest  collection  of   seals  anywhere*    and   It  was 
collected  by  an  expert  before  the  First  World  War.     One  can   Imagine 
what  quality   this  collection  comprised.      In  time  the  collection   came. 
Then    I    had  to  work  out  the  descriptions.      I   wrote  back  to  "Tiki"* 
asking   If  he  had  some   documentation  that  described  all    of   these 
things.      I   was  aware  that  he  could  read  Oriental    languages.      As    I 
told  you  earlier,    I   got  a  reply   that  stated  that  during  World  War    II 
the  daughter  had   lost  al I    of   the  descriptions — a  great   loss. 


Problems  with   Documentation  of   the  Chinese  and  Japanese  Seal 
Col  lections 


Gans:     A  year  or  two  later   I   came  back  to  the  museum    In  Milwaukee.     Earl  ler 
In  this  taping    I   mentioned  the   death  of   Dr.   Borage   In  an  auto 
accident.     After   his   death,   the  new    director  came  from   a  Chinese 
museum   In  Chicago.      I   wrote  to  him  and  asked  whether  he  would  be 
willing  to  describe  the  Chinese  objects,    and  he — perhaps  without  full 
awareness  of   the  task— answered,    "Yes." 

So  my  collection  of   Chinese  and  Oriental    seals  was   deposited  in 
Milwaukee.     By   chance,    I   had  to  do  business   in  Chicago,   and   I    used 
this  opportunity   to  drive  over  to  Milwaukee,    where   I   got  personally 
acquainted  with   Dr.    Starr   (that  was  the  name  of   the  new    director). 


161 


Gans:     Starr  was  a  very  nice  man.      In  his  office   I    saw   my   collection  on  the 
table.      Starr  explained  to  me,    "You  see,    I   personally  cannot  evaluate 
Chinese  objects,    but   I   always  get  visits  from  former   colleagues  and    I 
show   them   these  objects.      I   find  that  one  colleague  describes  this 
and  that  Item,   and  eventually  your  collection  will    be  readily 
described  —  although   In  some  time."     It  was  a  great  disappointment  for 
me.      This  "time"  could  be  fifty  or  a  hundred  years  until    everything 
would   be  described.     But    I    couldn't  say   anything.      I    said*    "All    right. 
Try  to  get   It  as  fast  as  you  can.     Perhaps  you  will    be  able  to  at  least 
get  some  of    It  described." 

A  year    later    I    happened  to  visit  one  of   my  cousins  who  lives  In 
San   Francisco.     By   chance  she  mentioned  she  had  received  a   letter 
from   her   nephew  who  was  then   In  Taiwan. 


More  on  Na  Chl-Liang»s  Catalog 

Gans:      I    have  already   told  you  about  how    I   got  a  catalog  for  the  collection 
of  Chinese  seals.     But  now    I  want  to  add  more  to  the  story. 

By  chance    I    heard  about  a   Mr.   Lee,    a  jeweler   In  San  Francisco 
with  a  small   collection  of  Chinese  seals,    who  had  asked  a  Chinese 
friend  to  write  a  catalog.      I   saw    It  and  discovered  that  the  friend 
was  called  Na  Chl-LIang.     He  was  the  curator  of   the  Palace  Museum    in 
Taiwan.      I   wrote  to  my   relative  asking  him  to  find  out  If  this  Mr. 
Na-Ch  I-L  lang,    who  some  fourteen  years  earlier  had  written  this 
catalog,    was  still   alive  and  around,    and  I   was  told  he  would  be 
coming  to  Minneapolis  and  that  he  would  write  a  catalog  for  my 
col  lection. 

That  was  a  very   pleasant  surprise.       I   telephoned  Dr.    Starr    in 
Milwaukee  and  told  him  of  the  upcoming  visit,   and  he   laughed  over  the 
telephone,    "Oh,     I   know    Mr.   Na  Chl-LIang  very   well.      I   visited  with 
him  four  years  ago  and  we  have  become  friends.      I   will    Invite  him  to 
come  to  Milwaukee  over  a  weekend.      He  w  1  1  I   be  our  guest  and   I'm  sure 
he'll    arrange  everything." 

And  so   Indeed  It  happened.      Over  a  week  end,    Mr.   Na  Chl-Liang 
described  the  whole  collection  of   Chinese  and  Japanese  seals   In  the 
Chinese   language,   with  a  few   English   notes.     That  was  at   least  a  step 
closer  to  what  was  needed  because  the  English  explanations  that  he 
got  out  of   the  dictionary   were  pretty   clear. 

A  few  months  later,    the  collection  was  returned  to  me  by   Dr. 
Starr.      I   had  a  meeting   In  Berkeley   with   Mr.   Na  Chl-LIang,    and  at  the 
same  time   I    Invited  Mr.    Max  Knight,    who  was  an  editor  at  the 
University  of   California  Press.      I    brought  these  two  gentlemen 


162 


Gans:     together  at  my   home  and  from  ten  o'clock   In  the  evening  on,   they 
argued  together  about  the  correct  translation  of   certain  Chinese 
words  Into  the  English   language.     At  the  very  end   I   had  a  wonderful 
catalog  for  the  whole  Chinese  collection — In  Chinese  as  well   as   In 
English.     Thus  ends  the  story  of   the  Chinese  seals,    which   probably 
Includes  the  finest  possible  specimens  of  various  metals  and  of  great 
taste.      I   remember  Na  Chl-LIang*   who  as  the   late  director  of   the 
Palace  Museum,    really  knew   what  quality  was.      In  some  Instances  he 
described  these   Items  as  extremely  rare  and  unusually   beautiful. 


More  on  the  Mohenjo-Daro  and  Thailand  Seals,    and  Exporting  Treasures 


Gans:     Having  the  Far  East  very   well    represented,     I    looked  for  other   seals. 
As    I  told  you  earlier,    by  chance   I   got  one  of  the  rarest  seals  of 
India   from    Mohenjo-Daro.       It   Is   dated  around   1500  B.C.      Incidentally, 
It  came  from  a  very  fine  London  collection  and   It  still    has  the  name 
In  silver  on  the  box  It  came   In. 

I   also  described  how,    quite  recently,    a  new  culture  was 
discovered  In  Thailand.     From  there,    I   got  a  few   specimens  from  a 
former   collector  who  had   lived   In  Thailand  for  a  number  of  years 
where  he  had  studied  the  Thai    language. 

That  brings  me  to  a   different  point  that   I   would  like  to 
mention.     These  countries,    such  as  north    India,    where  Mohenjo-Daro  Is 
located,    and  Thailand,    are  eager  to  retain  their  excavated  findings 
In  their  own  country.      For  that  reason,    all    objects  excavated  had  to 
go   Into  the   local    museums.      They  are  extremely  rare  in  foreign 
countries.     Now,    that   Is  the  "fight"  between  a  museum  and  a 
university.      Both   want  to  have  such  objects  exhibited  In  the  museums 
and  the  university   doesn't  allow   these  to  be  taken  out  of    the   shards 
and  other   surroundings  where  they   have  been  found. 

One  can  understand  both   sides,    but    I   think  that  science, 
represented  by  the  universities,    comes  first.      Hence  the  fight. 
There  should  be  the  possibility  of  an  understanding  from   both   sides. 
Nowadays,    the  directorship  of   a  museum    lies   In  the  hands  of 
administrators  who  want  to  show   things — show   pieces.      They   don't  care 
so  much   for  the  science.      In  years  gone  by,    fifty  years  or  more,    the 
directorship  of  museums  was  In  the  hands  of  experts  for  whom  science 
was  the  most   Important  part.     Lefs  hope  that  some  understanding  can 
be  found  between  both  groups. 


163 


More  on  Acquisition   of    the  Sasanlan  Seals 


Gans:     Years  went  on  and  on  and  no  seals  showed  up.     The  end  of  the  life  of 
my   wife  and  the  story  afterwards  have  already  been  reported.      I  never 
thought  that   I   would  ever  hear  the  word  "seal"  again,    but   I    did. 
That  happened   In  1983,    when  my   friend.    Professor  Helmpel,    told  me 
that  he  had  heard  that  a  big  collection  of  Sasanlan  seals  would  come 
on  auction    In   London.      These  were  once  the  property  of   a  London   lord. 
Heimpel    said  this  would  be  a  great  enrichment  for  our  collection,   and 
since  this  collection  consisted  of  about  three  hundred  fifty  seals, 
probably  nobody  would  try  to  buy  them  and  there  was  a  chance  of 
gettl ng  a   bargain. 

Helmpel    telephoned  the  London  auctioneer  and  I  approached  my  old 
friend,   Albert  Baldwin,   to  do  the  buying.     Finally,   we  submitted  our 
bids  to  the  auctioneer  via  Baldwin  and  Son.     We  had  half   luck  and 
half  mis- luck,    because  we  got  four   lots  of  altogether  three  hundred 
thirty  pieces,    while  the  fifth    lot,    consisting  of  only   fifteen 
pieces — all   of  which  were  Important  portrait  seals — we   did  not  get. 
A  representative  collection  of  Sasanlan  seals  was  something  we 
wanted.      It  was    Important  for  the  university,   and  particularly  for 
Professor  Helmpel,    to  get  an  entirely  different  aspect  when  we  got 
over  three  hundred  thirty   seals  from  one  country  to  add  to  the  ten  or 
fifteen  seals  that  were  already    In  my  original    collection. 

These  seals  are   Important  historically   because  the  Sasanlan 
Dynasty    was   the    last   dynasty    In  Persia.       It  ended   In  about  625  A.D. 
It  was  succeeded   by   the  Arabs.      So  historically,    this  period   Is  of 
great   interest.      But  our    luck  continued  this  year,    1984,    when  another 
native  of  Persia,   a  Kurd,   viewed  the  political    situation  over  there 
in    Iran,    and  came  with  another  collection  of  seals  from   northern 
Iran.      He  showed   it  to  Professor  Guitty  Azarpay,    herself   of   Persian 
origin,    who  could  easily   discuss  every   problem  of   an   Importer.     She 
Is  a   great  expert  on  this  kind  of   art.      She  had  the  chance  to   see 
this  new   collection  consisting  of   one  hundred  seventy   pieces,   and  to 
look  through   It  very   carefully. 

I   had  a  chance  to  buy  the  thirty-two  best  seals.     Again,    through 
our   good   luck,    this   Included  ten   portrait  seals,    Including  a  female 
portrait,    which   Is  extremely  rare.      When  Professor  Helmpel    comes  back 
(he  Is  at  the  moment  out  of  town),    he  will    have  the  pleasure  of 
seeing  a  great  collection  of   some  three  hundred  fifty  seals  from  this 
Sasanlan   Dynasty    In  Persia.     Being  myself   close  to  ninety-seven  years 
old,    I   think  this  will    be  our    last  acquisition  of   seals.      More  and 
more    I   have  felt  a  closeness  with  the  University  of   California.     Now, 
my   planned  gift  of   the  seals  will    be  one  thousand  or  more  In  number. 
They   are  securely   stored   In  a   university   building — Evans  Hall,    and 
all   of   my    library  on  seals   Is  close-by  and  connected  with   It.      It  Is 
now  more  or   less  agreed  upon  between  Professor  Helmpel   and  me  that 


164 


Gans:     all    of   the  catalogs  that  exist  (for  those   that   don't  exist — they   will 
find  a  new   expert)   will    be  collected  and  combined  Into  a  new  catalog, 
to  be  known  as  'The  Collection  of   Edward  Gans  and   his  Heirs."     The 
heirs  who  will    Inherit  the  col  lection  will    leave  It  as  a  gift  to  the 
university*    where   It  belongs.      I    consider  this  an  adequate  closing 
for   this   part  of   the  report. 


Some  Thoughts  on  the    IAPN  and  Collecting  Seals 

[Interview  16:     August  9,    1984,   no   tapes] 

[Mr.    Gans  spoke  without  questions  from  the   Interviewer,   Ora  Huth] 

Gans:     A  few   words  about  my  health.     My  eyesight   Is  worse.     Recently,    I   have 
been  thinking  about  the   letter  written  to  the   IAPN  [International 
Association  of  Professional   Numismatists]  officer  In  Paris,    Michel 
Kampmann.*     Perhaps    I    should  write  him,    asking  for   information  on  the 
IAPN. 

I   am   at  the  end  of  my  activities  now,    and   I   want  to  write  about 
truths.      I   could  sell    part  of   my  coin  collection  at  high   prices.      I 
feel     I    should  not  criticize  the  current  boom    In  prices.      Therefore, 
what  should   I    do?     One  thought  Is  to  admit  everything,    and  to  write 
about  the  exaggeration  of   everything.     You  should  write  that    I   am 
blind  and  cannot  write.     What  should   I    do? 

I   ask  that  you  write  a   letter  to  the  man   In  Paris,    Michel 
Kampmann.     [Addressing  Interviewer,   Ora  Huth]     Tell    him  about  my 
having  been  a  vice  president.     Check  on  a  few    important   data  about 
Abe  Kossof  as  president,   at  that  time.     Tell   about  the  need  for  a 
guarantee  of   genuineness  and  other   rules  being  conceived.      State  that 
I   am  blind  and  cannot  review  what  will    be   Included   in  the  oral 
history.     Ask  him  to  check  and  perhaps  add  to  the   Information  already 
given  on  the    IAPN. 

Coins  from  ancient  times  have  now   become  an   Investment  for  the 
wealthy.      Acquisition   Is  only   limited  by   the  size  of   the   pocketbook. 
Collecting  has  been  ruined  by   this  change.      I   will    not  be  able  to 
write  an  ending  about  the  economy  and   Its  effect  on  collecting. 


•Assistance  with   funding  Mr.   Gans'  oral    history   was  sought   In  a 
letter  to  Mr.    Kampmann.     No  contribution  was  made. 


165 


Gans:     The    IAPN  could  write  the  final    conclusion.      I    left  out  the 
liquidation  of   my   stock  and  the  end  of  my  business  because   I 
recognized  that  old  fashioned  coin  dealing  and  collecting  was  now  an 
Investment  and  gambling  business.      I  abhor  the  economic  developments 
as  to  coins  and  the  value  of   the  dollar.      The  enthusiastic  collector 
of   art  and  coins  must  abhor  this  development.     Where  we  had  wool   and 
silk — we  now  have  polyester.     Much  has  been   lost.      If  the   IAPN 
president  shares  the  same  view   he  should  please  express   It.      It  could 
be   In    letter   form. 

Ask  him    If   he  shares  my   opinion.      If   he  does*    he  could  write  a 
letter  to  be  Included  In  the  manuscript.      I   can't  do  anything  now   but 
sit.      Be   sure  to   underline  "Investment"  and  "speculation."      I    hated 
these.      They  have  honored  Dr.    Jacob  HIrsch  as  the   Inventor   of 
numismatics.     Later,    It  was  always  the  price  that  mattered.     You 
don't  hear  anything  about  beautiful    style  any   more.      My   friend* 
Velay*    always  protected  his  coins  because  of  their  beauty. 

As  to  my   seals  collecting*    I'm  ending  with  the  seals  already 
collected.     But  yesterday  a  dealer  was  here  with  seals  from  Turkey* 
Israel*   Egypt*   and  Iran — with  smuggled  seals.     Now  the  years  of 
liquidation  of   my  coin  collection  brought  some  pleasures  and  a  few 
aggravations.      I  want  silence  to  prevail  —  It  was  the  time   I  enjoyed 
growth   of   the  seals  collection. 

The  cataloging  will    take  at  least  ten  years  more.     Professor 
Helmpel    Is  cataloging  the  Sasanlan   seals.*     Professor  Helzer  will 
catalog  the   Indian  and  Thailand  seals.     All   of  this  Is  part  of  the 
comparative   slgl I lography   that  will    take  ten  years. 

One  thing  that  has  happened  recently    Is  that    I   have  begun  taking 
piano   lessons.      Jane  Kolley    Is  the   university   professor  who   Is 
married  to  Bruce   McNal  I   of   the  Summa  Gal  lery.     The  gal  lery    lost  a 
six-page  article   by  Robert  Zahn,    an  English  translation.      There   Is  a 
yearly   account  of   the  Berl In   Museum.      This  was  the  account  of  the 
year   1927.      Four  things   bound  together  are   lost. 

When  the  war  [World  War    II]  broke  out,    I   took  my  jewelry  out  of 
Germany   for   safekeeping.      It  helped  me  get   Into  the  coins  and  seals 
and  other  collecting. 


*The  comparative  si gl I lography   catalog   Is  being  compiled  by  Professor 
Gultty  Azarpay. 


166 

More  on   the  Move  to  Seal    Collecting 
[Interview   17:     December  20,    1984l#// 


Gans:      I    told  you  earlier  that   in  the  middle  of  my  seventies  my   health.    In 

general   very   good*    began  to  suffer,    and  eye  surgery   became  necessary. 
This   led  to  blindness.     Now    I   cannot  read  and  write  any   more.     This 
changed  my    life  entirely.      I   have  to  thank  the  Lord  that    I    can  still 
see  the  trees  and  the  street.      But    I    cannot  see  my  own  fingernails, 
and    I    cannot  read  anything.     At  that  point*    as    I    said  earlier,     I    had 
to  decide  what  to  do  with  my   great  stock  of   coins.     Lefs  go  on  now 
to  the  seals. 

I    had  compensation  for  my   troubles  when    I   switched  to  the  seals. 
My  experience  In  this  field  was   literally   miracle  after  miracle.     And 
the  reader  may  enjoy  a  rather   detailed  story   about   It  In  this 
respect.     And  for  me  It   Is  a  wondrous  experience  to  reawaken  all 
these  facts.      It  had  started  with   the  von  Aulock  collection,    which    I 
have  discussed.     The  story  was  followed  with  my  discussion  with 
Professor  Edith  Porada,    which    I    have  also  mentioned. 

My  great  Interest  In  the  von  Aulock  Mesopotamlan   seals,    the 
value  of   which   was  stressed  by  Professor  Porada,    was  later  shared 
with  Professor  Ann  Kilmer,    who  In  turn   Introduced  me  to  the  Near 
Eastern   studies   department's  specialist,    Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel. 
Professor  Helmpel    Immediately  encouraged  me  to  follow   up  by  adding  to 
the  collection.      Fortunately,    In  the  1960s  and   1970s  some  of   this 
material    appeared   in  London  auction  sales. 

Huth:     Which  London  house  was  that? 

Gans:      I   will    tell   you  about  that  shortly. 

Earlier    I   told  you  about  my   friend,    Albert  Baldwin,    who  was  a 
great  help.     He  followed  the  auction   sales  at  Sotheby's,    Christie's, 
and  other  auction  houses.      We  both   perused  the  catalogs,    and  at  my 
request,   over  the  years  he  bought  a  great  many   seals  of   similar 
character.      Most  notable  was  a  collection  of  seals  from  Crete  that 
came  on  the  market,   from  which  Mr.  Baldwin  picked  out  some   interesting 
material.     One  encounters  Cretan  seals  rarely. 


167 
Fred  Stress 


Gans:     Another  close  friend  of   mine  whom    I  told  you  about  In  another 

Interview    Is  Fred  Stress.     He  was  born   In  Egypt  and  Is  an  expert  on 
all    Egyptian  art.     Also,    together  with  Professor  He!zer»    he  was  on 
excavations  In  Mexico.     He  currently  works  at  the  Lawrence  Laboratory 
of   the  University  of   California.      Helzer  died  a  couple  of  years  ago. 
At  the  time*   he  was  a   leading  professor  here  at  the  university   In 
American  and  Mexican  archeology. 

Fred  told  me  once  that  he  was  going  to  Egypt  and  I  asked  him, 
"If   possible,   will   you  buy  some  seals  for  me?"     On  his  return  his 
first  meeting  was  with  an  old  friend,   a  lady  who  had  just  lost  her 
husband — who  had  been  a  collector  of   seals.     She  asked  him  whether  he 
could  help  her    liquidate  her  husband's  seal    collection. 

He  found  additional   material   for  me  through  an  Egyptian   dealer 
In  San  Francisco.      I    had  the  good   luck  that  one  of  the  earl  lest  seals 
was   Included,    dating  from  the  Fourth   Dynasty. 


More  on  Acquiring  Oriental,    Mexican,    Indian,    and  Sasanlan  Seals  ii 


Gans:     For  me,   every   coin,   every  art  object  had  to  have  a   label   with  a 

notation  of   everything  that  was  known  about   It.      I   have  told  you   In 
detail   about  the  second  miracle  that  happened;  securing  a  catalog  for 
the  Chinese  seals  collection,    written  by   a  noted  Chinese  authority, 
Na  Chl-LIang.      Mr.   Na  Chl-Ltang  finished  the  catalog,    with  the 
complete  Chinese  text  translated  Into  English. 

Later,    I    could  enlarge  this  Chinese  seals  collection  with  the 
help  of   a   local    friend,   Louis  Pappas,   a  well-known  art  dealer  and 
expert   In  many  fields.     He,    In  turn,    had  a  friend,    an  old  collector 
of  Japanese  art  pieces,   who  liquidated  his  collection  of   seals  and 
allowed  me  to  pick  out  a  number  of  the  best  (according  to  Na  Chl- 
Ltang)   pieces. 

As   I   said  before,   the  next  miracle,    In  an  entirely   different 
field,   occurred  when  Mr.  Otto  Frank  In  Milwaukee,   Wisconsin,   a 
trustee  of   his   local    museum,    sent  me  a  copy  of  the  museum  magazine. 
In  glancing  through  this  magazine,    I   found  an  article  In  which   seals 
from   Mexico  and  other  countries  (but  mainly  Mexico)  were  mentioned, 
and    t  was  able  to  acquire  a  number  of  Mexican   seals. 

it 


168 


Gans:     While  this  was  already  a  kind  of  miracle*    the  miracle  continued.     An 
old  acquaintance  from  Germany  had  emigrated  to  Mexico/   establ Ished  a 
jewelry  business*   and  by  that  time  he  became  a  collector  of   Mexican 
art   In  general.     His  name  was  Mr.   Stavenhagen.      I   had  heard  somewhere 
that  he  had  some  fourteen  thousand  Items.     The  old  acquaintanceship 
with  this  person  developed   Into  a  real    friendship.     He  evidently  had 
collected  every  kind  of  art  piece  except  seals.      I    do  not  know   why. 

The  most  famous  collector  of   Mexican  seals  was  a  Mr.   Field. 
Whether  a  friendship  existed  between  them  or  not,    I    do  not  know. 
Anyway,   my   friendship  with   Mr.  Stavenhagen  grew.     Here  and  there   I 
got  small   parcels  from  him  which  were  most  welcome  material.     For 
some  reason  unknown  to  me,    his  attributions  and  descriptions  of  the 
seals  were  scanty.     Then  along  came  Professor  Szlggy  Helzer  to  help. 
He  contacted  a  Mexican  authority  and  supplied  a  number  of  details 
with  which,   finally,   my  friend  Fred  Stress  was  also  of  help. 

I  mentioned  a  number  of  miracles  when   I   spoke  about  whole 
collections.     Similar  miracles  happened  when   individual   or  several 
Items  were  acquired.      I   have  already  mentioned  the  Mohenjo-Daro  in 
India,   the  late  acquisitions  from  the  newly   discovered  Thailand 
culture,   and  some  other  places.     The  reader  of   this  oral    history   may 
want  to  look  through  the  catalog  being  developed  by  Professor  Helmpel 
[now   Azarpay]  to  note  the  diversity  of  origins  of  the  collection. 

I  think  I   should  close  with  more  on  the  most  Important  miracle 
that  has  happened.      About  ten  years   later,    In  my   ninety-sixth  year, 
Christie's  wrote  a   letter  to  Professor  David  Stronach  of   the  Near 
Eastern  Studies   Department,    U.C.    Berkeley,    about  a  forthcoming 
auction  of  Sasanian  seals.       He  showed   it  to  Professor  Helmpel,   who 
was  Immediately    Interested  because  there  had  never  had  an  offer  of  a 
big  collection  of  these  seals  from  a  relatively   small    but   Interesting 
Persian  dynasty.      Wolfgang  Heimpel    convinced  me  that  we  should  try  to 
buy   It.      We  succeeded.     But  there  was  a  misunderstanding.      Christie's 
spoke  about  a  complete  collection,   but   it  was  not  complete.     One 
whole  series  of   portrait  seals  was  missing. 

Several    months   later  a  Kurd  came  to  Professor  Gultty  Azarpay 
(Near  Eastern  Studies  Department,    U.C.  Berkeley),    and  showed  her   a 
another   collection  of   Sasanian  seals  (of  only  a  hundred  seventy 
pieces).     Professor  Azarpay   knew,    of  course,    of  our  collection  and 
had  the  great  kindness  to  help  us   by    Influencing  the  owner  of  the 
collection  to  show    It  to  her.     She  picked  out  some  thirty   Interesting 
pieces,    which   included  ten  portrait  seals  which  we  had  missed  buying 
In  the  previous  purchase.     All    parties  were  happy.     We  had  our 
portrait  seals,   making  a  really  complete  collection.     The  original 
owner  got  a  fair  price.     The  remaining  one  hundred  forty  pieces  or  so 
were  bought  by  the  Lowle  Museum. 


169 


Gans:     Now,    I   promised  that  this  was  my   last  purchase,    but  It  Is  my 
Intention  that  eventual ly  the  whole  col  lection  w 1 1  I   goto 
U.C.Berkeley»    to  the  Near   Eastern   Studies   Department. 

Later,    I  will   write  more  about  my  disgust  concerning  speculation 
and   Investment.     Originally,    I    should  have  said  that  there  are  two 
kinds  of  coin  dealers.      One   Is  the  kind   like  Jacob  Hlrsch,    Interested 
primarily    In  the  art  value.     The  other  kind  are  the  thousands  of 
others  who  are  members  of  the  IAPN. 

I'm  afraid  seals  may  go  the  same  way,   become  mean  and  subject  to 
speculation.      I'm  the   last  of   the  old  school.      I    have  told  the  story 
of    NUFINA  and   the    IAPN. 


170 


XVI      MORE  RECOLLECTIONS  ON  A  LONG   LIFE  AS  COIN  DEALER,    COLLECTOR, 
FRIEND,    AND  FATHER 


[Interview   18:     January  8,    1985]#* 


Gans:      I   have  not  quite  finished  the  story  of  my    life.     To  reawaken  old 

memories   Is  a  great  pleasure  for  me.     Since   I   can  still    speak,   the 
story  has  not  quite  ended.      And   I   feel   an  "afterword"  should   be 
added. 

We  have  entered  a  new  year   [1985]  since    I   spoke  the  last  words. 
[The  last  Interview  was  on  December  20,    1984]      I   am  now   blind.      In   my 
mind,    I   constantly   review   the   last  half-century.      I   arrived  at  a  not- 
so-pleasant  result.      It  Is  the  economic  development,   the  events  of 
the  dollar,    that  changed  the  aspect  of   art. 


More  on  Collecting  as  an    Investment 


Gans:     A  few   words  about  the  coin  trade:     Around  the  turn  of   the  century, 

the  coin  trade  was  an  amiable  affair  between  collectors  and  dealers. 
The  leading  dealers  were  recognized  experts  and  could  advise  their 
collecting  friends,    taking  a  reasonable  profit.      Before  the  First 
World  War,      I    believe   it  was   In   1909,    Dr.   Jacob  HIrsch   In  Munich 
started  to  give  his  auction  catalogs  a  broader  scientific  content. 
After  World  War    I,    this  was  followed  by  his  colleagues   in  Germany   and 
other   countries.      In  following  years,    Dr.   HIrsch   moved  to  Paris  and 
Geneva,   constantly  refining  his  catalogs.     Coin  auctions  became  more 
and  more  popular.     With  this  came  a  stabilization  of  the  coin  market 
on  a  reasonable  basis. 

After  the  Second  World  War  a  revival    started  slowly   In  Europe, 
and  the  leading  dealers  recognized  the  necessity  of   an  organization. 
This   led  to  the  foundation  of   the   International    Association  of 


171 


Gans:     Professional   Numismatists.     When   I  arrived  here  In  1938  there  was  no 
organization    In  the  U.S.A.,    and  the  coin   business   In  this  country    was 
almost  entirely   limited  to  coins  produced  In  this  country.      I   was  the 
only  one  who   limited  his  activity  to  antique  coins  and  coins  struck 
prior  to  1500  A.D.,     Including   Renaissance  medals. 

In  the  fifties  and  the  sixties  coins  fol  lowed  the  art  market  and 
prices  skyrocketed.     These  coins  became  an   Investment.     For  example* 
In  1952  Professor  Arthur  Dewing*   Boston*   purchased  from  Jacob  HIrsch 
a  rare  Agrlgentum   decadrachm  for  $7000.     The  Hunt  brothers  bought  the 
same  coin  a  few  years  ago  for  one  million  dollars.     On  the  same 
evening  Professor  Dewing  bought  from  me  a  beautiful  Naxos  tetradrachm 
for   $300.      At  an  auction   In  the  1980s  the  same  coin  reached  over 
$150,000. 

The  old  fashioned  relationship  and  actual    friendship  between 
dealer  and  collector  has  vanished.      It  has  been  replaced  by  an  advice 
given  to  an   Investor. 

For  myself,    I    discovered  the  seal,    having  been  guided   In  that 
direction  by  Hans  von  Aulock  and   later   by   Professor  Edith  Porada. 
For  the   last  twenty  years   It  was  a  great  enjoyment  that  I  could  share 
with  the  members  of  the  Near  Eastern  Studies  Department  of  the 
University  of   California,    and  here  especially  with  Professor  Wolfgang 
Helmpel.     A  new   source  for   learning  has  been  opened,   and    I  expect 
that  this  now  rather  comprehensive  collection  will   become  the 
property   of   the   university. 

I    know    It   Is  vanity,   but    I   cannot  suppress  the  fact  that   I   could 
acquire  and   Include  In  this  collection  a  group  of  three  hundred  fifty 
Sasanlan  seals  at  my  age  of   ninety   seven.     May  other  acquisitions  by 
other   peoples   In  behalf  of   science  follow. 

I  am  pretty  sure  that  the  gamblers  [speculators]  will,  In  due 
course,  develop  the  science  of  slgl  I  lography  Into  their  new  field. 
But  this  Is  a  game  between  science  and  businessmen. 


172 


lections  on  I  Ifestyle  and  the  Need  to  Listen  to  the  Heart 

ti 

Gans:     My   friend  and   Interviewer*    Ora  Huth*    asked  me  on  behalf  of   some  U.C. 
students  how    I   could     accomplish  all   of   this.     The  only  answer    I   can 
give   Is»    "Ask  the  good  Lord."     I    lived  my  ordinary    life  and  tried  to 
do  everything  In  an  ordinary*    uncomplicated  way.      I   myself   did 
everything   In  a  simple  way»    and   I    didn't  exaggerate  anything. 

Huth:     One  of  the  questions  they  asked  had  to  do  with  your  diet.     Are  you  a 
vegetarian*    or  do  you  follow   a  special    diet  that  Is  different  from 
what  you  had  In  the  past?     You  told  me  you  do  have  a  gymnasium  where 
you  exercise. 

Gans:      I    ate  and  drank  everything.      I   believed  In  vitamins.      I   believed*    In 
the   last  years*    In  meditation.     And  most   Important  of  all*   when    I   had 
Important  decisions  to  make — In  any  way — I   fol lowed  my  heart  and  not 
my  brain.     Only  this  gave  me  peace  of  mind*    and  that   I   considered  most 
Important.      I   was  never*    In  real  Ity*    driven  by   my  conscience — period. 
I  asked  my   friend*  Norman  Davis*  about  this*  and  he  said  the  same  to 
me.     "When    I  made  a  mistake  when   I   followed  my  heart*   then  It  was  all 
right.     But  when   I  followed  my  brain  and  made  some  mistake*    then    I 
blamed  myself  for  not  following  my  heart."     I   think  that  Is  the  main 
thing  In  life  for  everybody.     Follow  your  heart  and  you  will    always 
say  to  yourself*    "You  did  what  you  did."  then  forget  It. 

I   had — I    don't  mind  telling  you  and  you  will    understand  that   I 
will    leave  out  details — three,    four,    five  weeks  ago*    when   I   had  my 
eyes  and  my  dizziness*   and  everything  business-wise  was  more  or   less 
settled*    I    wanted  to  end  my    life.      I   telephoned  my   doctor*   Dr.   MIcco* 
to  come  to  our  regular  lunch  meeting  and  bring  me  my  prescription  so    I 
could  take  my   pills*    so   I   could  take  my    life.     The  next  day*    I  was 
asked*    "Did  you  call   your   doctor?"     And  the   doctor  had  said,    'let's 
talk   It  over  before  you  do  anything."     That  first  made  me  almost  blame 
myself*    "You  change  your  mind  every  five  minutes."    And  then   I    said 
only  that   It  was  finally  a  decision  that   life  was  not  easy  for  me. 
And  with  my  brain*   here  on  this  earth    I   have   done  enough.     With  my 
heart*    I   have  somehow   a  feeling  there   Is  something   left  to  do.     And 
so  It  was. 

Dr.    Mlcco  and    I    had  a  wonderful    understanding — what  do  you  know? 
If    I  had  not  worked  a  year  with  Natasha  on  her  book — that  will    now   be 
the  greatest  success  that  has  ever  been  made — a  book   like  Tolstoy's 
War  and  Peace,   and  that  has  been  taken  now   for  a  year  of   promotion   In 
New   York*    Paris  and  London.     She  wrote   It  In  English  and  translated 
It  herself.      She  speaks  six   languages.      It   Is   cal led  Lost  Heritage, 


173 


Gans:     and  there  are  four  volumes.*     And  the  main  characters  are  Princess 

Tatlana  and  her  Prince  Stephan.     The  good  Lord  gives  us  what  we  have* 
therefore    I   will    continue  to   live  on. 


Recalling  a   Close   Connection  with   Michael    Sloan.     In  Postwar  New    York 
[Interview   19:     August  28,    1985]## 

[Edward  Gans'   daughter,    Lydla  Gans,    was  visiting  and  present  during 
the   Interview], 


Gans:     Today    Is  August  28th,    Goethe's  birthday. 

Well,    here  In  my   library  the  other  day  a   little  book  fell    Into 
my  hands;   old  memories  became  awakened,    and  this  Is  the  story  of  the 
book.      It  happened  after  World  War    II,    probably   a  year  or  two  later. 
A  young  boy  came   Into  my  place  of   business. 

Huth:     Where  were  you   located? 

Gans:     At  101    West  55th  Street  in  New   York  City.     His  name  was  Michael 

Sloan.     He  was  the  grandson  of  Thomas  A.   Edison.     He  told  me  he  was 
Interested   In  ancient  history,    the  art  of   the  Greeks,    and  Greek 
philosophy.     The  history  of   the  Greeks  fascinated  him,   and  we  had  a 
very   pleasant  conversation.      A  personal    contact  was  established  right 
away. 

He  mentioned  that  his   Interest  extended  to  coins,   and  he  asked 
whether  he  could  also  see  some  coins.      A  few   days  afterwards,    his 
mother  visited  with  me.      She  asked  me  to  support  her  son's   Interest, 
saying  that  the  parents  wanted  to  encourage  his  coin  collecting 
activities,    and  that   I   should  advise  him   In  this  respect. 

From  then  on  Michael   visited  me  regularly,    perhaps  once  or 
twice  a  year,    and   In  the  course  of   a  few  years  he  had  accumulated  a 
nice  coin  collection. 


His   Interests  widened   Into  politics,    not  only    In  this  country, 
but  In  places  all   over  the  world  that  deeply    interested  him.      It  was 
a  few   years  later,    In  summertime,    that  he  suddenly  told  me  that  he 
was  going  to  Europe,    that  he  wanted  to  see  Russia,    that  he  was  eager 
to  find  out  for  himself  what  was  going  on  in  Europe.     When  he  arrived 


*Natasha  Borovsky,    Lost  Heritage.      Four   volumes.      Scheduled  for 
publ ication   in    late  1988. 


174 


Gans:     In  Vienna  he  visited  the  mountains  nearby*    and  he  went  skiing. 

Suddenly  an  avalanche  came  down,    and  he  was  burled  under  snow.     A 
valuable   life  had   been  extinguished. 

Several    months   later    I   had  a  call    from   Michael's  mother.     She 
told  me  that  she  had  found  a  number  of   poems   In  Michael's  desk.      It 
was  a  surprise  for  her  because  she  didn't  know   anything  about  their 
existence.     The  parents  decided  to  collect  them   Into  a   little  book 
and  she  had  brought  me  the  copy.     Here   It   Is,    and  you  can  take   It 
home  and  use   It  [gives  the  book  to  the   Interviewer]   for  this  history. 
The  story    I   told  you  she  has  written  here   In  the  preface,    and  that's 
him  [pointing  to  a  page  In  the  book]. 

Huth :     That   Is  a  photograph  of   him,    and  he  must  have  been  about  the  age  of 
that  picture  when  he  died. 

Gans:      I   thought  as  a  grandson  of   Edison   It  might  be  of    Interest. 

Huth:  Yes,  we  can  easily  Include  It  In  the  supporting  documents.  According 
to  the  story  written  here  he  died  In  1949,  and  they  published  this  In 
1951.  That's  Interesting.  Would  you  like  to  say  something  else? 

- 


The    Important   "Lucky    Seven"  Women 


Gans:     The  "something  else"   I    have  to  say    Is  maybe  the  key  to  my   whole 

story.      It  was  a  "lucky  seven"  of   my  mother  that  has  carried  over  to 
me.     These  are  the  seven  Important  women   In  my    life  In  recent  years. 
These  are  the  persons  who  played  this  distinctive  role:   Lydla  Gans, 
Natasha  Borovsky,   Lucy   Kaplan,    Roslyn  Jamleson   [naming  the  first  four 
of   the  seven]. 

Huth:     Who   Is  Roslyn? 

Gans:      I    never  mentioned  her,    did    I? 

Huth:     No. 

Gans:     Her  husband   Is  a  Dr.    Jamleson.     They  are  my   neighbors.      She   Is  just 
getting  her  Ph.D.    In  art  history   degree  from  Stanford.      She   Is  J±L£ 
authority  on  Rodin.      At  the  beginning  of   her  study    I   translated  a 
number  of  German  authorities  Into  English  for  her,    and  she  discussed 
her   research   with  me. 

Then  comes  Carol    Eisenberg,    who  gives  me  my  piano   lessons.      She 
Is  not  an  average  pianist,    but  a  great  musician.     Her  gift  Is 
fantastic.      She  teaches  once  a  year  at  DC. 


175 

Huth:     Are  you  saying  that  you  think  she  has  a  special    gift  for  teaching? 

Gans:     For  teaching  and  for   dancing  and  for   improvising  and  for  a  feel  Ing  of 
music.      She   Is  really  extremely  gifted. 

Huth:     You  said  that  along  with  your  piano  that  you  are  studying 
composition.      Is  that  with  her? 

. 
Gans:      Yes. 

And  then  comes  Jul  le  Provost*    who  Is  working  as  a  secretary  at 
the  eye  clinic  here  at  U.C.    Berkeley.      She  has  helped  me  so  much.      In 
a  moral    sense  she  helped  me  get  over  my  troubles.     She  is  a  devout 
Catholic*   and  she   Is  for   peace*    for  helping*   helping*   helping. 

The  seventh  one   Is  Polly  Horn.      She  Is  a  specialist   In  holistic 
medicine*    In  preventing  sickness.     That   Is  my  entourage*    that  Is  my 
life  since  Asya   left  me.      That's  the  last  one*    I   hope*    at  least. 

Huth:     Now  as  to  Polly*   you  need  to  say  just  a   little  bit  more  about  who  she 
Is. 

Gans:     Polly  Horn.      In  her  early  years  she  lived  with  her  mother  and 

grandfather.     She  lost  her  father  when  she  was  two  years  old.     Her 
grandfather  was  a  professor  at  Harvard*   and  thafs  a  very   wel  l-known 
family    In  the  East*   on   both  her  father's  side  and  her  mother's  side. 

Huth:     You  said  that  she  has  been  helping  you  here — that  she  has  been  a 
great  help  to  you  since  she  moved   in  with  you. 

Gans:     Absolutely.      I   couldn't  exist  without  her. 
Huth:      In  what  way    Is  she  helpful? 

Gans:     Dr.    MI  ceo  wanted  me  to  have  somebody  around  and  the  good  Lord  brought 
Pol  ly  here  to  me.     She  takes  care  of  me  In  the  best  way — Incredibly. 
So   I   am   surrounded  by  females  who  are  between  ages  forty  and  sixty 
years. 

Huth:     That's  right,   these  are  all   wcmenl 

Gans:     But  that's  not  to  forget  the  daughters  of  Lucy,    who  are  not  forty — 
who  are  twenty. 

Huth:     We  had  some  additions  we  were  going  to  make  to  your  oral    history  as 
we  conclude  our   Interview  sessions.      Shall   we  get   Into  that  now? 


176 


The  Life-Fulfilling  Events  to  Come:     Request  to  Postpone  This  Oral 
History's   Completion 


Gans:     Well,    let  us  postpone  everything  because   I   hope  that  six  months  from 
now   everything  will    be  more  speakable.      I   expect  Natasha's  success,    I 
expect  Lucy's  success,    and    I   expect.    In  the  order  of   happening, 
Lydla's  success.     And  Roslyn's  book  on  Rodin  will    come  out  and  all 
the  other  things  that  can  happen  will    be  known.     On  all   of  that 
depends  when   I   will    close  my    life  story. 

Huth:     You  said  Roslyn's  book  will    come  out. 

Gans:     Yes,    she  has  written  what  was  supposed  to  be  her   doctoral    thesis,    but 
It  will    be   the  book  on  Rodin. 

Huth:     WIN    It  be  published  by  Stanford  University? 

Gans:     By  Stanford,    I  hope.      It's  not  ready  yet,  and  for  that  reason  I  don't 
want  to  speak  about  hopes   until    It  really  has  happened. 

Huth:      I    don't  think  we  can  postpone  completing  this  oral    history.      Do  you 
think  you  will   want  to  add  something  else  In  six  months? 

Gans:     Yes,   to  finish  the  story. 


More  on  Natasha's  Novels 


Gans:      I   would   like  to  wait  until    the  book  by  Natasha  comes  out  and  has,    I 
hope,    lots  of  success.      It  has  already   been  accepted   In  England, 
France,   Germany,    Scandinavia,    and   Italy. 

Huth:      In  all    of   those   languages,    too? 

Gans:     The  book,    or  books,    will    be  translated   In  all    the  languages,    yes. 
She  will    probably  translate  the  French  edition  herself.     But  It  Is 
all    In  the  making.      The  publisher   Is  Holt,    Relnhart,   and  Winston.* 
[Mr.    Gans'   daughter,    Lydla  Gans,    brings   in  a   copy   of   the  book  and 
says,    "That's  a  prepubl Icatlon  copy."] 


*Borovsky,    A  Daughter   of    the  Revolution. 


177 


Gans: 


Huth: 


Gans 


Huth 

Gans 
Huth 

Gans 


Huth 
Gans 


That   Is  one  of  the  prepubllshed  three  thousand  copies*   only  for 
distribution  among  all    the  book  dealers   In  this  country. 

Obviously.    It's  to  promote  the  sale  and  to  get  orders.      I    didn't  know 
they   did  It  that  way.     That's  a  good   Idea  for  a  book   like  that. 

It  will    not  only  be  this  book.    It  will    be  a  trilogy.     She  Is  writing 
now  on  the  next  one.      It  will    comprise  over  a  thousand  pages*   so   It 
will    be  two  volumes.     Then  she  Is  writing  another  one  based  on  the 
Russian  and  Polish   revolutions  and  it   Is  a  companion,    so  to  say.   to 
War  and  Peace,    by  Tolstoy.     To  my  mind,    it  Is  as  great  or  greater 
than  Tolstoy's  work. 


The  book's  jacket  has  a    little  article  on  the  back  about  the  author. 
[Lydla  Gans  comments.    "I   think  that's  for  reviewing.    Isn't   It?"] 
Yes.    It's  probably  what  they   do.    so  they  can  give  It  a  review. 


She  has  created  characters  who  behave  as  human  beings  should  be. 

It  has  a  very   nice   Illustration  on  the  front,   too.     Well,   she  must  be 
very  happy  with   that,   and  you  had  a   lot  to  do  with  this. 

We  worked  together  for  several    years.      She  was  sitting  here  every 
evening,   and    I   read  the  draft  version.     Then   I   commented  on   It.   and    I 
asked  Natasha  to  explain   It  to  me  and  so  on.      It  was  not  really  that 
I   assisted   In  actual    writing,    but  In   discussions  about  It.     And  when 
we  get  together   now.    It's  to  discuss  only   what  did  Stephen  say  to 
Tatlana  and  so  on.    In  connection  with  changes  for  the  published 
versions.      In  Natasha's  novels  Tatiana   Is  a  woman  who   Is  the  ideal    of 
a  real    princess,    who  becomes  a  medical    doctor,  and  who   Is  finally 
murdered  or  tortured  by  Russian  people  working  for  the  revolution. 

Is  a    lot  of    It   based  on   fact  —  on  actual    history? 

Every   historical    event   is  100  percent  truth,    but  the  characters 
themselves  are  fiction.     For  all    of   the  history  of  what  takes  place 
In  the  novels,    she  collects  every   material    fact  needed  and 
establishes  the  truth  of    It. 


Remarkable  Care  From  Polly  Horn 


Huth:     One  other  person  whom  you  mentioned  today  and  the  last  time    I   was 
here,    and  that   it  would  be  very   nice  to  have  something  more  on  the 
tape  about — Is  Polly  Horn  and  what  she  has  done  for  your  health.     You 
told  me  that  she  has  helped  you. 


178 


Cans:     Yes,   with  diet  and  with  movement,   with  massage,   and  with  going  for  a 
walk,    and  with  the  way  she  encourages  me  and  says,    "Don't  eat  that," 
and  "Don't  be  worried*"  and  "I    will    take  care  of   that,"  and  "I   will 
bring  you  today   to  an  outside  area,"  that   I   had  never  seen  before   In 
Til  den  Regional   Park.     She  fixes  me  my   nightcap,    and  she  knows  how 
the  nightcap  should  be  composed— what  special    Ingredients  It  should 
have. 


Daughter  Lydla's    Invitation  to  China 


Gans:     Now  comes  Lydla.     She  has  been  Invited  to  go  and  teach  mathematics 
in  China. 

Lydla:  That's  something   I've  wanted  very  badly  to  do. 
Huth:     Where  will   you  teach? 

Lydla:  At  Sheljlang  University.      I    don't  have   It   in  writing  yet.      I   just 
spoke  to  the  man  a  couple  of  weeks  ago.     He  was  here  In  California. 
Ifs  In  Sheljlang  Province   In  Hangchow,   which   is  not  too  far  from 
Shanghai.      Ifs  a  gorgeous  city.      Do  you  know  Hangchow?      That's  one 
of  the  top  tourist  places. 

Huth:      I   have  heard  of   It. 

Lydla:   Yes,    It's   lovely.      And   It's  supposed  to  be  a  very   good  university. 

Huth:     Will    It  be  for  a  year? 

Lydla:   No,     I'm   only  going  for  three  months.      I    didn't  want  to  get  that  far 
away  for  that  long  from  my  father.      It's  too  hard  to  telephone  to 
China,    so   I   said  for  just  one  quarter. 

Huth:     So  when  will    that  be? 

Lydla:   A  year   from   now.      Fall   quarter.      Where    I   teach,    we're  on  the  quarter 
system.      I    haven't  told  you  all    this  either,    Daddy.     The  way    it's 
arranged   I    would  go  there  and  spend  a  week  or  two  getting  adjusted 
and  then  teach  an  eight-week  seminar.     Then  they  will    allow  me  to 
travel    around  the  country,    which   is  what  they  do  with  their  guests 
over  there,    so   I   would  get  a  chance  to  see  other  parts  of   China. 
I've  been  there  before,    on  a  tour,    and  Ifs  something  that   I   wanted 
very  much  to  do — to  go  back  and  teach  there.      I'm  excited  about  that. 

Gans:      I'm   sure  she  was  recently    In  Western  Samoa  for  a  month,    and  she  was 
six  months   In  Hawaii,   and  doing  research   In   both   places. 


Polly  Horn,  Edward  Cans'  good  friend,  1986, 


179 


Lydla:    I   travel    a   lot.     We  go  through  a  traumatic  thing  each  time   I    gol 
[laughter]     But    I   go  al I   over  the  world  and   I   travel   often. 


More  on  Adopted  Daughter/    Lucy 


Gans:     That's  Lydla.      Now   her  sister,    Lucy*    Is  working  at  the  jail    In 

Martinez.      That's  one  of   six  jails   In  this  country   In  the  modern 
style.     She  Is  teaching  painting  and  she  brings  them  music,   and  now 
she  brings  them  photography  and  encourages  them.     So  every  one  of  my 
children  does  something  for  mankind,   and  that  Is  what  I  am  so  proud 
of.      I    don't   do  anything;    It's  their   Idea  to   do  all    this,      [laughter] 
It's  not  the  case  that  she  would  take  more  care  of   her  father.      No. 
It's  all    for  mankind.     But  that  Is,    on  the  other  hand,    helping 
people,    and    I   am  happy   about   it,    and   I    I  Ike  to  encourage   It. 


Polly  Horn's  Special    Care 


Huth:     Well,    you  obviously  have  good  care  here. 

Gans:     And  for  that  reason  now   comes  Polly.     Now,    I   am  a  taker.     As   I    see 
It,    Polly   gives  me  everything. 

Huth:     You  said  something  about  a  problem  you  had,   from  when  you  were  a 

little  boy — a  problem   with  your  neck  that  she  helped  you  with?     You 
had  a  neck  that  wouldn't  turn. 

Gans:     Yes,    she  was  the  "doctor."     Polly  brought  me  to  her  chiropractor  and 
she   Is  also  encouraging  the  chiropractor   In  what  she   does.     And  the 
best  help   Is  massage  for  heal  Ing  my   neck.      I    lie  down  for  the  massage, 
and  this  she  does  In  the  other  room,    but  when   I    sit  here  she  comes  and 
rubs  me  here,   on  my   neck,    and  that  helped  me.     The  problem    Is  gone. 

Huth:     Yes,   you're  able  to  move  your  head  now.      I   noticed  that. 

Gans:     And  the  trouble   I   had  here  [points  to  his  shoulders],    this  has 
disappeared  completely. 

Huth:     You're  standing  up  stratghter.      I   did  notice  that — much  taller. 

Gans:     That's  all   encouragement  and  help  from  Polly.      Physically   and 

mentally    I'm  a  different  person.      And  thanks  goes  to  all    the  seven   In 
their  own  way. 


180 


Reflecting  on  Life  at  Age  NInetv-ElQht 


Cans:      I   would   like  to  have  Lydla  here  every   day,   but   I   have  to   let  her   be 
away   to  do  something  for  mankind. 

Huth:     That's  right. 

Gans:      I    have  a  connection  with  what  she   Is  doing.      It   Is   like  an  extension 
of  me.     That  makes  me  happy/   especially   the  satisfaction  that   I   can 
be  something  at  the  end  of  my    life. 

Huth:  You  do  have  a  connection  with  what  she  does. 

Gans:  We  also  are  as  close  as  can  be.      I   am  healthy  again. 

Huth:  How  old  are  you  now? 

Gans:  Ninety-eight. 

Huth:  Ninety-eight.     And  that  was  yesterday  on  August  27,    1985? 

Gans:     Yesterday.     Yes.     Recently    I   went  through  my   library  and    I   found 

Michael's  [Sloan]  book,    for  the  story    I   told  you  today.      It  came  back 
to  me. 

Huth:     Well,    I'm  glad  we  added  that. 

Gans:      I    think  everybody   might  be    Interested   in  Thomas  Edison  and   in  his 
grandson. 

• 
Huth:     Oh  yes,    I   think  so. 

Gans:     He  was  really  a  fantastic  boy,   and  you  will   read  what  his  mother 
writes  here  in  the  short  foreword. 


Lvdla's  Thoughts  on  her   Father's  Caring  Philosophy 


Lydla:   Do  you  have  a  place  for  other  people's  comments?      Is  the  oral    history 
going  to  Include  an   Introduction  or  something? 

Huth:      It  will    have  a  preface  and  an   Introduction,    and  that  would  be  the 

place  for  comments  by  other  people.  If  you  have  something  that  you 
woul  d  I  Ike  to  put  In  wrltl  ng,  woul  d  you  I  Ike  to  do  that?  Or  do  you 
want  to  put  It  on  the  tape  by  saying  It  now? 


181 


Lydla:   Yes.      I    sort  of  generally  thought  about   It  and  never  formulated  It 
too  well*    but  the  secret*   or  part  of  the  reason*    at  least*    for  my 
father  having  all    these  people  around  him   Is  because  he's  so 
supportive*    you  know.      And  he's  so  strong   In  confidence*    and   In  his 
giving  support  and  positive  reactions  to  people's   work.       It's   been  a 
wonderful    thing  for  me*    and   I'm   lucky  to  have  a  father    like  that. 

Huth:     That's   probably   been  his  approach  through  his   lifetime*    and  one 
reason  why   he's   lived  to  age  ninety-eight. 

Lydla:   Yes*    because  most  parents  aren't   like  that.      Most  parents  tend  to  be 
critical.       I    noticed   It  with  Lucy*    he'd  say*    "Come  on*    you  can  do   It» 
It's  good*"  you  know  I      He  did  the  same  with  Natasha*    and  that's   been 
a  nice  thing  to  have. 


Closing  the  Story  on  Seal  Collecting 


Huth:     How  are  they   progressing  on  the  collection  of   seals  at  the 
university? 

Gans:      I   just  wrote  the   last  codicil    Cto  his  will]  the  other  day  directing 
that  the  collection  on  my   part  Is   left  to  the  university*  and  Lydla 
will    also  give  her  part*    In  memory  of   me*   to  the  university.     So  the 
whole  collection  will    be  the  property  of  U.C.   Berkeley.      Only   the 
seals. 

Lydla:  That  whole  seal    collection.      Apparently  part  of    It   Is   In  my   name. 
it 

Gans:     My   seal    collection  started  out  with  five  hundrd  pieces  and  now    It  has 
one  thousand  pieces*    roughly  speaking*    of   course.      So  Lydla  had  five 
hundred  pieces.      That  was  established  at  that  time*    and   I've  bought 
mostly  Sasanlan   [Persian]  and   Indian  seals  since  then.      So  Ifs  now 
what  Professor  Helmpel    and   I    Intended   It  to  be*    and  that's  one  of   the 
requirements.      It   Is  given  on  the  condition  that  a  catalog  be  written 
on  the  topic:  comparative  slgl I lography*   a  book  of   knowledge  about  the 
seals.      It's  called  The  Collection  of  Edward  Gans*    Berkeley*    1887-so- 
and-so.     And  the  catalog  has  to  be  a  complete  catalog*    with 
Illustrations  and  complete  descriptions.     And*    happily*    I   agreed  to 
make  a  gift  of   them.      The  collection  Is  worth  so-and-so  much*    I   guess 
around  $300,000  to  $400,000.      That  has  to  be   upheld  by   appraisal    If 
the   Internal    Revenue  Service  wants  It,    or  perhaps  the  university  will 
want  to  verify   It.      It  has  to  be  established — the  exact  amount  of 
value  has  to  be  estimated. 


182 


Gans:     My  Idea  Is  this.      I  have  nothing  In  mind  to  work  with  museums*    and   I 
have  everything   In  mind  to  work  with    learning   Institutions  like 
universities.     This  Is  my  wish,   to  help  with  what  students  will    need 
to  know  about  the  seals  for  the  next  one  hundred  years,   on  the  basis 
of  the  catalog  that  Dr.   Helmpel   will   write.*     He  Is  a  great  scholar 
and  a  great  human  being,    far  above  average  In  knowledge  and 
conception  of  what's  going  on. 

Huth:     WIN    It  take  several   years  to  complete  that  catalog? 

Gans:     Yes.      It  will    take  about  ten  years  until    the  catalog  will    be 

finished.     That  part  of   the  collection  coming  from  Lydla  had  an 
Impression  for  each  seal    so  you  can  see  what  Is  on  the  seal. 
Otherwise  you  can't  see  the  detail.      Any   student  or  any   dilettante 
cannot  really  conceive  what  Is  engraved  Into  a  stone.      It  has  to  be 
shown   In  an   Impression  that  can  be  studied.     And  then   It  has  to  be 
photographed  In  both  ways,    the  original   and  the   Impression.     And  for 
many  of  the  seals  you  want  to  establ  Ish  the  material,   the  geology. 
They're  made  of  various  kinds  of   stones,    or  ceramic.      I    don't  know 
all    of   the  materials,    such   as  porcelain,    glass,   obsidian,    and  a 
hundred  different  kinds  of  carnel  Ian  —  all    kinds  of  stones.      All    of 
that  has  to  be  establ  I  shed.     Thafs  a   great,    great  task,    but   don't 
forget  that   It  provides  study  material    for  hundreds  of  scholars,  and 
for  the  first  time  ancient  seals  from  Europe  can  be  compared  with 
seals  from  Japan  and  Ecuador.      In  each  country   they  have  collections. 
For  example,    In  Japan  there  are  hundreds  of   collections  of   seals 
made,   even   In  Rome,    In  Paris,    In  Munich.     But  there  Is  no  collection 
comprising  comparisons  of  total    specimens  from  one  time  period  to 
another.     There  are  seal  s  from  500  B.C.  and  1200  A.D.     It  will   all   be 
combined   In  one  book. 

It   Is  the  work  of   Wolfgang  Helmpel   to  stress  this  possibility, 
and  he  will    see  to  It  that  once  the  catalog   Is  created,   the 
university   will    find  people  who  will   enlarge  th  is  col  lection  of  one 
thousand  seals  so  It  will    eventually  comprise  five  thousand  or  ten 
thousand  seals.      It  was  always  a  miracle  that  these  seals  came  to  me. 
Whether  Helmpel   will   write  that,    I    don't  know. 

Huth:     Well,     If   he  doesn't  write    It,    Ifs   In  your  oral    hlstoryl      So   Ifs 
there. 


Lydla:   [To  her  father]     Well,   you  always  talk  about  miracles,    but   I  always 
say  you  make  them  happen  yourself. 


*     The  catalog   Is  now   being  compiled  under  the  direction  of  Professor 
Gultty  Azarpay   [May   1987]. 


183 


Cans:     There  exists  one  set  of   books   in  my   library*    MInoan,    I   believe,    about 
the  selge  of  the  time  of  the  Trojan  War  and  Greek  seals.     So  that 
concerns  seals  only   In  these  two  cultures  of  Greece  and  Crete.     The 
set  had,    I   believe,    six  or  possibly  eight  volumes,    small    volumes.      It 
covers  seals  of  these  two  cultures,    located  In  collections   In  New 
York*    In  Paris,    In  Munich,   and  many  other  places.     Three  or  four 
volumes  were  collected  since,   and   I  hope  Helmpel   will    use  your 
I  Ibrary  to  get  them  al  I.     The  cost  of  each  volume  at  that  time  was 
two  hundred  marks.     That  was  a  lot  of  money.      I   spent  a   lot  of  money 
for  my    library.      The   library   also  goes  to  the  university.      I   have  the 
books  written  by  Professor  Fleltflnger,    which    I   originally   bought  for 
fifty  or  one  hundred  dollars,    with  the  current  value  estimated  at  two 
thousand  dollars  for  three  volumes.     So  everything  Is  crazy  now   for 
that  reason. 

This  collection  of   seals  that   I   bought  last  year,    I   bought  for 
close  to  ten  thousand  dollars.     That  came  out  to  about  thirty   dollars 
a   seal.      Who  would  have  thought  we  could  buy  three  hundred  sixty 
seals  from  Persia  for  this  amount,    nearly  ten  thousand  dollars? 
Actually,    I   could  buy  them   for  thirty   dollars  each  at  an  auction  at 
Christie's   I  n  London. 

Huth:     Because  you  took  the  whole  collection? 

Gans:      I    bought  the  whole  collection.     But  Helmpel    was   Interested  because   It 
was  three  hundred  pieces.     That  gives  the  Department  of  Near  Eastern 
Studies  a   look  at  the  whole  culture,    with  these  three  hundred  pieces. 

Huth:     Would  you  say  that  only  a  university  would  be  that   Interested? 

Gans:     Only  a  university,    and    I   was  there  to  buy    it.     The  university 
wouldn't  spend  ten  thousand  dollars. 

Huth:     Or  they'd  have  to  have  a   lot  of   paperwork  before  they   did   ItJ 

Gans:     These  seals  that   I   bought  would  cost  much  more  If  purchased 

separately.      I    got  fifty   thousand  dollars  worth  or  more.       I    don't 
want  to  go   Into  details.      So  now  Helmpel    has  a  complete  collection 
from  the  Sasanlan   dynasty. 

Huth:     He  must  be  very   happy  with  that! 

Gans:      Ifs   Incredible.      All    of  these  seals  came  to  me.      I    did  not  run  after 
them. 

Huth:     But  you  knew  what  to  do  when  you  found  them. 

Gans:     Yes,    when  they   came.     And  this  privilege  that   I   had — call    It  a 
miracle — I   want  the  university  to  have,    because   I    love  the 
university. 


184 
More  on   th«  Rift  of   Philosopher   Felix  Mautner's  Works 


Gans:     There  Is  one  other   little  thing.     Have  you  heard  of  Nicole  who  had 
the  dress  shop  called  Nicole's*    on  Telegraph  Avenue? 

Huth:     Yes. 

. 

Gans:     Nicole  was  a  good  friend  of  mine*    and  her  husband*    Dr.  Alsberg»    was 
the  authority  on  Mexican  art,    but  he  died  three  years  ago.     At  the 
funeral    memorial    event*    Nicole   Invited  me  as  an  old  friend  of  her 
husband*    and  she  also  Invited  a  professor  of   philosophy  at  the 
university*    her  professor*    because  she  herself  was  studying 
phi  losophy. 

By  chance    I    sat  next  to  the  professor.      At  the  time   I    didn't 
understand  the  name*   naturally.     We  came  to  talk  about  philosophy  and 
he  said  he  was  Nicole's  teacher.      I   mentioned  the  name  of   Fritz 
Mautner.     Mautner's  works  were  In  my    library*  on  the  top  shelf. 
So   I   mentioned  that  when   I   was  twenty  years  old  I   collected  all  of 
the  works  of  Professor  Mautner. 

Three  years   later  Professor  Hans  Sluga*   from  the  philosophy 
department*    said  to  Nicole*    his  student,    "At  the  funeral    event  at 
your  home   I   met  a  certain  Mr.  Gans  and  he  spoke  about  Mautner.     Could 
you  ask  him  whether  he  would  sell   me  a  ten-volume  set  of   books  that 
he  has?"    She  asked  me,  and  I  said*  "No*    I  won't  sel  I  them."     It  was 
only  Involving  books   I   considered  to  be  worth  about  five  thousand 
dollars.      I   called  Nicole  up  the  following  week  and  said,    'Tell    Mr. 
Sluga   I  will   give  him  my  ten  volumes.      I  will   give  these  three  works 
from    Mautner  to  the  university."    He  said*    "If  you  give  them   to  the 
university*   they   will   have  It*    but   I   want  to  have  It.      If  you  give   it 
to  them  they   will    sell    It  again  for  whatever  money   It  will   be  worth." 
I    said*    "I    don't  want  them.     Then    I   will    do  this.      I   will    give  them 
to  you  personal  ly»    and  what  you  Intended  to  pay,    you  will    pay  to  Dr. 
Helmpel   so  Helmpel   can  buy  seals.      I    do  not  want  to  sell    the  books 
for   money." 

So  he  will    pay  Helmpel    a  hundred  dollars  or  a  thousand  dollars* 
whatever  he  thinks  these  books  are  worth.      Maybe  they   are  worth  ten 
thousand   dollars.      I    don't  know.      I    don't  want  to  have  money   for 
them.      I  want  to  make  good  what  your  chancellor  did  for  you  by   paying 
for   part  of  my  oral    history.      That  was  my    Intention. 

He  now  has  the  books*  and  he  brought  me  to  his  study*  and  then 
he  told  me  this:     He  especially  teaches  Professor   MItklnstel n's 
philosophy   here  at  U.C.   Berkeley*    and  Mltklnsteln   always  mentions 
Fritz   Mautner    In  his  own  writings.      So  Sluga  got   Interested  In 
Mautner.      These  are  fantastic  works  that   I   read  when    I    was  twenty 
years  old.      That  was  my    Interest.      Then  Professor  Sluga  got  these  ten 


185 


Cans:     volumes  from  me  and  five  others   I   also  gave  him*    and  Lydla  has  other 
volumes  of  Mautner's  works. 

Lydla:    I   have  three  volumes. 

Cans:     And  the  rest    I   gave  to  the  Leo  B&eck   Institute.     So  when   It  comes  to 
money — coin   books    I'll    sell,    that's   business.     But  all    of   the  other 
books  have  to  be  given  away. 

Professor  Sluga   Is  now   the  head  of  the  philosophy  department  of 
the   university.     Naturally,    I    like  to  help  U.C.  Berkeley.      I   meant  to 
help  your   department,    but  nothing  came  out  of    It.     But  anyway, 
Helmpel   will    eventually  have  the  privilege,    whenever  Professor  Sluga 
sends  the  money   for  the  ten  volumes.      Sluga  said  he  had  been  writing 
all   over  the  world  trying  to  find  the  volumes   I   gave  him.     He  wanted 
to  purchase   them,    but  he  couldn't  find  them.     Evidently,    only  the 
university  and    I   had  the  books,    and  the  Leo  Boeck   Institute.      Leo 
Boeck  got  al I   of   the  first  prints  of   the  other  books    I   gave  them,   but 
they   already  had  Mautner's  works.     Mautner  was  a  great,    great 
philosopher.     Fantastic. 

Huth:     Does  the  university   already   have  that?      Is  that  why  he  thought  they 
would  sel I    It? 

Gans:     That's  what  he  said  to  me. 

Huth:     Because    I   think  that  would  be  very   unusual    If  they  would  sell 
something  that  valuable. 

Gans:     And   if   not,   they   would  be  placed   In  the  rare  books  department,   and 
probably  they  could  not  be   lent  out  permanently  to  the   professor. 
And  that   is  something  that  he  had  to  have.      Imagine   It,   ten  volumes 
that  belong  to  him.      They  are  not  translations.      They're  all    in 
German.      And  Hans  Sluga  speaks  German. 

Huth:     Was  he  from  Germany? 

Gans:     No.      I   guess  he's  from  Yugoslavia  or  somewhere  near  there. 


Natasha's   Second  Novel:       A  Remarkable  Romantic  Storv 


Huth:     Do  you  think  we're  going  to  have  anything  else  to  add  today?      [Gans 
shows  a   book]     That's  the  book,    Natasha's  book?* 


*Borovsky,    A  Daughter  of    the  Revolution. 


186 


Gans:  That1  s  the  book,   [by  Natasha  Borovsky]  Here  Is  the  chronology  and 
the  map.  The  map  of  the  whole  revolution  Is  100  percent  history. 
The  revolution  In  Russia  and  the  revolution  In  Poland.  And  this  Is 
the  history  of  the  time  of  the  Nazis  just  one  hundred  years  later. 
These  characters  that  Natasha  has  created  are  absolutely  the  Ideal 
you  want  to  see  In  a  woman  and  a  man.  These  two  and  a  I  I  of  the  other 
characters  are  perfectly  genuine — the  professor*  a  noble*  big  fellow/ 
and  his  assistant*  and  all  of  the  relations*  the  daughters  and  so  on* 
fantastic. 

Lost  Heritage,  thafs  the  second  book  that  will  come  out.*  In 
the  story*  what  Is  so  complicated  Is  that  the  son  of  Tatlana  Is 
adopted  by  her  former  beloved  friend  who  was  In  the  war.  He  was 
supposed  to  have  been  killed  In  an  airplane*  and  finally*  after 
months*  he  was  found  alive.  So  In  the  meantime*  she  married  this 
professor.  How  the  love  affair  between  these  two  people  Is  continued 
Is  absolutely  the  Ideal  way  of  carrying  on  this  story. 

Lydla:  It's  a  totally*  absolutely  romantic  story*  and  he  loves  Itl 
Huth:  Sounds  great.  Now*  has  that  one  been  pub  I  I  shed? 

Gans:  That  Is  going  to  be  the  memoirs  of  what  happened  before.  She  Is  now 
writing  again*  Lost  Heritage. 

Huth:  Oh,  she's  writing  that. 

Gans:  It  was  already  written.  I  have  the  original  draft  of  the  four 

volumes  here.  Now  the  publishers  say — not  what  all  of  the  other 
publishers  said — "Shorten  It."  They  say*  "We  want  to  have  It 
enlarged  from  five  hundred  pages  to  one  thousand  pages." 

Huth:  And  It  will  be  a  sequel  to  this? 

Gans:  That  Is  a  sequel*  chronologically  speaking.   In  her  writing*  she 

wrote  It  the  other  way  around.  She  wrote  the  story*  Lost  Heritage. 
first,  and  ±ha±  later.  But  the  publisher  said  we  have  to  do  this 
chronologically.  The  f  Irst  vol  ume  w  1 1  I  comprise  ttie  Spanish 
Revolution*  Franco  and  so  on.  That's  already  been  produced  by 
Natasha,  secretly  preserved  somewhere.  That  I  do  not  know  about. 

Huth:  Well,  that  Is  very  Interesting.  So  shall  we  end  this  Interview  now? 
Gans:  Yes. 


*Borovsky,  Lost  Heritage 


1  87 


XVII      ADDENDUM  TO  MY  ORAL  HISTORY 


[During  the  recording  period  and  twice  after  the  final    recording  on 
August  28,    1985,    Mr.   Gans  would  have  thoughts  he  wanted  to  Include. 
He  self-recorded  those  thoughts,   which  are  added  here  by   date  of 
recording  as  an  addendum  to  his  oral    history.] 


December  5,    1984 


Dealing  With   Dealers  and  Museums 

Gans:     How  to  write  this  last  chapter   I   am  not  sure.     No-one  can  advise  me 
so    I   will    do  the  best    I   can.      In  the  past  when    I   had  unilateral 
correspondence  with  potential   clients.   Numismatic  Fine  Arts  was  at 
Its  height  and   I    had  better  health. 

As  for  my  eyesight,    for  five  years   I   suffered  with  only  a  slight 
visual    conception.     Now,    from  8   a.m.   to  8  p.m.    I    can    do   nothing. 
Last  week,    I   bought  a  good  radio  that  gives  me  something  of    Interest 
from  the  outside  world.     Today,    family  and  friends  come  and  stay  to 
visit  about  an  hour.     That   Is  mine,    but  during  the  other  hours   I   am 
alone. 

Experiences  during  the  last  twenty-five  years  were  the  most 
unpleasant  In  my    life.      I   need  to  find  delicate  words  for  ugly 
actions.      My    last  words  for  this  oral    history  will   note  that  I 
despise  the  hunt  for  the  dollar  and  the  manipulations  connected  with 
artifact  collecting.      I   will    add  a  few   words  on  this  subject.     On 
tape   I  will   not  criticize  the  behavior  of  others — through  which    I 
suffered.     This  was  encountered  through  my  colleagues. 

Baldwin's  (founded   In  1800)  and  Splnks,    both   In  London,    and  a 
Mr.    Frank  Kovacs   In  San  Mateo,    were  and  are  the  only  dealers   I   trust. 
Kovacs   Is  an  expert   In  coins.     He  was  employed  by  Leo  Young   In 
Oakland,    where  he  handled  classical    coins.     Then  he  opened  his  own 
firm.     He  also  dealt  with  books  on  numismatics.      I   suggested  he  carry 


188 


Cans:     out  his  business  on  his  own,   out  of  his  home.      Instead,    he  had  his 

business  on  Geary   Street.     Later,    he  told  me  he  was  sorry   he  had  not 
followed  my  advice.     He  recently   bought  a  house  on  the  Peninsula,    In 
San  Mateo,   and  he  has  just  been  married.     He  should  come  to  talk  to 
you   [the   Interviewer].     Mr.  Kovacs  shares  my  opinion  on  the  new 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts. 

The  art  business,    especially    In  antiques,    coins,    etc.,    has  been 
a  friendly   kind  of  business,    not  the  kind  seen   In  Macy's  and  other 
similar  businesses.     Now   there  Is  chiseling  for  prices  and  on 
everything.      I  want  to  say  that  It  Is  below   my   dignity  to  go  Into 
detail    about  the  way   business   Is  done  now.      I   don't  want  to  have 
anything  to  do  with   It. 

I    like  to  support   learning  and  teaching  activities,    and   I    have 
no  desire  to  associate  with  the  business  of   coin   dealing  now.     The 
University  of   California's  activities  have  spread   In  this  more 
pleasant  direction,   while  the  museum  administrators  generally  were 
able  to  get  money   for  their  pursuits  through  social    connections,   for 
publicity  and  financial    gain  purposes.      The  coin   dealers  stick 
together  through  the   International    Association  of  Professional 
Numismatists  that  has  the  power.     They  make  rules.     They  meet  In 
Singapore  and  such   places. 

Here  Is  a  book  titled,  Wealth  of  the  Ancient  World:  The  Nelson 
Bunker  Hunt  and  Will  Ian  Herbert  Hunt  Collection.  Klmbal I  Art  Museum, 
Fort  Worth,  1983,  published  In  association  with  Summa  Publications. 
I  suggest  you  ask  the  Hunts  for  money  for  my  oral  history.  You  must 
ask  for  more  than  four  thousand  dollars,  otherwise  It  is  like  asking 
for  pennies.  They  do  good  with  their  money,  but  In  a  clouded  way. 

I   am  ol  d  fashioned — from   an  older  time.      In  German  they  have  a 
term  for   It:     "below   dignity."     The  Summa  Gallery  can  spend  five 
thousand  dollars  for  a  dinner,    but  they  cannot  pay   for  the 
contribution  to  this  oral    history   that   I  asked  for. 

As  to  the  seals  collection.    It  began  with  the  story  about  Hans 
von  Aulock — and  Edith  Porada,    who  encouraged  me.     Later,    I    talked 
about  Otto  Frank,    a  trustee  of   the  big  museum   In  the  capital   city 
of  Wisconsin,   a  coin  collector  and  a  good  friend.      I  visited  him. 

What  has  happened  to  collecting  Is  so  tragic.     Everything  Is 
priced  higher  and  higher.     When  the  catalog  on  my   collection   Is  out, 
there  will   be  a  run  on  seals.      It  will    show   how    Important  they  are. 
I    don't  want  one  seal    to  cost   $20,000.     This   Is  terrible   Inflation. 
I    don't  fit  Into  this  time  very  well.      I   am  too  old  for   It. 

My   former  friend   In  Europe,   Herbert  Cahn,    disappointed  me,    too. 
I    wrote  to  him  about  two  of   my  gold  medals.      He  said  they   were  worth 
$20,000    In   French  francs.     Then,    later,    he  said  they    didn't   bring 
this   price — that  he  only   got  an  offer  for   $10,000   francs,    so  he 


189 


Gans:     didn't  sell    them.      I   wrote  him  agreeing  that  It  was  best  not  to  sell 
them.     Then*   six  weeks   later    I   got  a   letter  stating  that  an  employee 
had  sold  the  medals  for   $10,000  francs.     Herbert  Cahn  now   says  that 
was  the  right  thing  to  do.     All   of  this   Is  ugly  and  not  done   In  a 
moral   way.     Now    I   think  Herbert  Cahn  would  tell   me   I   was  being  old 
fashioned.     The  old  Hamburg  way  would  condemn  this — but  not  the  new 
Hamburg  way.      Everything  Is   liberalized.      Decency   In  business   Is  seen 
as  a   gentleman's  activity.      Ninety-nine  percent  of  the  others   In  the 
IAPN  would  call   me  an  outsider.     Professor  Helmpel    supports  me,    but 
he   understands  the  other  way  of   doing  things.     Mr.   Mitchell,   at 
Baldwin's,    understands  what   I   am  saying. 

The  University  of   California  should  consider  whether  they  want 
to  go  with  modern  times — or  keep  the  old  times  going.      It  has  to  do 
with   decency   and  noble  old  fashioned  values,    actions,    and  opinions. 
Among  the  university's  trustees,    you  will    find  both  kinds 
represented.     There   Is  a   lady,    Ms.   Anderson,    who   is  English  and  In 
the  Greek  Department,  and  who  Is  trustworthy.     Professor  Darryll 
Amyx,    In  the  Art  Department,    and  Mr.   Miller,   the  excavator,   are 
gentlemen.     The  Hunts  probably  gave  Mr.    Miller  five  thousand  dollars, 
and   I    gave  him  fifty   dollars,    for  his  excavating  projects. 

A  lady   named  Charlotte  called  me  about  her  husband's  Japanese 
collection.     She  said  she  had  seen  Mr.   Moulter,   who  was  the  new 
Numismatic  Fine  Arts   (NUFINA)   boss,    but  Is  now  an  employee. 


June    18.    1985 

More  on  Deal  Ing  with   Dealers  and  Museums 

Gans:     There  are  a  number  of  changes   In  my    I Ife.      I   now  have  Polly  Horn 
living   In  my   house  and  giving  me  holistic  care. 

In  thinking  about  the  oral    history    I    dictated,    we  both  worked 
hard,    but    I   cannot  read  what  has  been  said  and  translated.     Therefore 
I   want  to  end  with  a  discussion  of   the   last  ten  years,      I   now   need  to 
speak  about  the  number  of   coins  bought  for  three  dollars  and  later 
sold  for  five  dollars,   and  that  are  now   selling  for  three  hundred 
dollars  and  five  hundred  dollars.     This   Is  for  the  most  common  coin, 
the  Alexander.     Now,   the  most  common  gold  coin  sells  for  ten  thousand 
dol lars. 

A  normal    dealer  couldn't  continue   In  business.      He  would  need  to 
have  and  use  bank  credit.      I    never  had  bank  credit.      I    never   said 
"thanks"  to  the  purchaser,    only  "thanks"  to  whoever  was  selling  a 
"piece  to  me.     They   did  a  favor  to  my  customers   In  selling  to  me. 


190 


Gans:     After  Lydla   left   I   often  helped  others.     Now   Polly  Horn   Is  giving  me 
back  care — In  much  the  same  way  that   I   gave  to  others. 

Natasha  Borovsky's   book*    to  eventually   be  four  volumes,    Lost 
Her  I  tage.    Is  almost  out  to  book  dealers.      It   Is  fantastic.      I   read 
the  proofs.      I   also  went  with  her  to  Los  Angeles  to  talk  with  the 
publisher.     They  said  to  shorten   It.     She   Is  married  to  a  man  with 
connections  to  the  San   Francisco  Chronicle.      The  book   Is  about  a 
Princess  Tatlana  and  a  Price  Stefan*    the  main  characters.     A  second 
book  will   be  based  on  the  memoirs  of   princes.     Holt*    Relnhart,    and 
Winston    Is  the  publisher.      They're  based   In  New   York.      The  book   Is 
part  of  a  trilogy*  and  It  will    be  a  selection  for  the  Book-of-the- 
Month  Club. 

My   adopted  daughter*    Lucy*    has  her   painting  work.      She  continues 
with  her  work  at  the  Martinez  jail*    where  she  teaches  painting.     She 
Is  also  studying  psychology.      I'll   talk  about  my   daughter*    Lydla*    as 
a  postscript.     Now*    I   will    tell   you  about  Lucy's   daughters*    Justine 
and  Meagan. 

Justine  has  graduated  from  Tufts  College*    Massachusetts*    where 
she  was  a  theater   student.      She  graduated  magna  cum    I  aude.      She  has 
had  many   roles   In  theatrical    productions  and  has  work  performing  In 
commercials.     Now*    she  is  going  for  graduate  studies.     This   is   in 
Boston.      Meagan*    the  youngest,    Is  spending  eight  months  traveling   In 
Europe,   Africa,   Egypt  and  Rome.     Now  she  wants  to  go  to   Israel. 

I  am  continuing  my  piano  lessons  on  most  Sundays,    but  sometimes 
on  Monday  or  Saturday.     Carol    Eisenberg   Is  my  teacher.     She  teaches 
In  the  dance  and  music  departments  at  U.C.    Berkeley.      I   am  also  doing 
some  composing.      I  wrote  some  music  for  a  poem  by  Natasha.      I   play  my 
pieces   In  all    variations,    although  one  finger  gives  me  a  problem. 

I   am  also  having  chiropractic  treatments  with  Ginny  Howe.     They 
are  real ly   helping  me.      When   I   was  eight  years  old  I   got  a  stiff 
neck.     This  was   in  1894,    when  my  father  and  brothers   died.     The 
doctor  came  to  our  home  and  my   mother  said,   "Please  look  at  Edward. 
He  complains  of  a  stiff  neck."     I  said,  "Look  at  me.     I  can't  turn  my 
head."     When  the  doctor   tried  to  turn   It,     I   yelled.      The  doctor  said, 
"Your  son   Is  having  a   fantasy."      In   1950    I    still    couldn't  turn   my 
neck.      The  chiropractor  has  relocated  my  neck  bones  and  the  muscles. 
I    can   use  my   neck  now.      [Demonstrates] 

Polly    Is   like  a  miracle.      I   am   a  different  person.      Everyone   is 
now  different,    Including  what   I   have  said  about  people  In  other 
Interviews.     What   I   said  about  Natasha  and  Lucy— you  should  change   It 
and  move   It  to  the  end.      [This  section  was  not  moved.] 


191 


Cans:     Earlier   I  told  you  about  an   Important  book  that  was   lost  In  1982  by 
the  Summa  Gallery.     They  couldn't  find   It,    and   It  was  almost  as 
valuable  as  the  jewelry.     They  found  the  book  recently  and  returned 
It. 

I    had  a  deal    for  selling  coins  through  a  Swiss  bank*    Bank  Leu. 
The  director  came  here.     He  picked  out  four  hundred  coins.      I   sell 
about  five  thousand  dollars  worth  each  year,    starting  with  the  most 
common  coins.     They  sold  a  gold  coin  from  Egypt  for  a  thousand 
dollars,    although    It   Is  worth  much  more. 

There  are  still    some  good  coin   dealers:     Sotheby's,    Christie's 
auctioneers,    Splnks   (general    art — established  In  the  year  1670)  and 
their  coin   departments.     Baldwin's   Is  still    good.      These  are  the 
continental    dealers.      Coins  became  an  investment  material,    growing  In 
value  from  a  hundred  dollars  to  a  hundred  thousand  dollars,   even  to 
two  hundred  thousand  dollars.      It   Is  all    speculation.     Only  a   larger 
firm  can  do  this  kind  of   business.     There  are  mostly  merchant  dealers 
now   for   Investment  purposes  only. 

Museum  administrators  have  become  a  problem,   too.     For  example, 
Mr.   White,   of  the  De  Young  Museum.     Some  of  my  worst  experiences  have 
been  with  museums. 

As  to  my  seals  col  lection,    the  catalog  will   take  ten  years  to 
complete.      It  takes  about  one  month   per  seal. 

Everything   Is  going  up   in  value.      It   Is  also  changing  with 
seals.      Over  the  years,    they  couldn't  be  sold.      Now    they   are  selling 
for  three  hundred  dollars  to  five  hundred  dollars  each,    where  once 
they  were  considered  valueless.      If  you  put  a  high   price  on   it, 
someone  may   want    It. 

As   I    sal d  earl ler,   Pol ly    Is  studying  hoi Istlc  medicine  and  diet 
at  Kennedy  University.     She  makes  sure  that   I   eat  vegetables;   no 
coffee,    except   decaffeinated;   no  sugar;   no  chocolate;   and  no  alcohol, 
except  a  little  wine  on  special   occasions.     Then  we  watch  for  the 
body   responses.     Every   morning   I    go  up  and  down  eighty  steps 
(actual  ly  four  times  up  and  down  twenty   steps).     She  has  taught  me 
how  to  breathe,    lifting  the  rib  cage. 

Norman  Davis  calls  me  every  week,   as  if  we  were  brothers.     His 
wife  died  one  or  two  years  after  Asya  died.     He's  ten  years  younger 
than    I   am,    so  he  Is  eighty-seven  years  old  now,    and  In  good  health. 
He  gave  his  collection  of   paintings  to  the  Seattle  museum.     Recently, 
he  gave  them   a  $35,000  Greek  vase,    In  what  was  a  tax  savings  for  him. 
He  collected  beautiful   things  and  gave  them  to  the  museum.     Now  he  is 
an  honorary   citizen  of   the  City  of   Seattle.      He  flies  to  London  twice 
a  year.     He  was  born   In  England  and  he  came  here  In  1938.     He  settled 
In  Seattle,    where  he  went  into  the  brewery  business  and  became  a 


192 

Gans:     collector  and  a  student.     He  was  the  director  of   the  art  exhibition 
at  the  Seattle  World's  Fair.      He  was  also  the  author  of   eight  books. 
I  will  make  a  gift  of   these  books  to  The  Bancroft  Library. 

As  to  my  house  in  Berlin*  called  the  Fried  lander  Fuld,  It  was 
the  first  house  on  Unter  den  Linden  street.  That  is  where  my  bank 
was  located*  the  Deutsch  Landerbank. 

In  the  last  ten  to  fifteen  years    I   wrote  a  book  on  Goethe's 
medals.      It  took  four  or  five  years'   work  to  complete   It.      Actually* 
It  was  like  play.      I   also  played  with  my  seals,    the  Sasanlan  seals. 
Then  Gultty  Azarpay  got  the   last  thirty  seals,    the  second  batch.      The 
first  batch  came  from  Christie's.     The  last  batch  came  from  the  last 
Persian  dynasty.      I   recently  gave  Professor  Helmpel   two  more  books 
and   I    bought  him  another  ancient  seal*    also. 

Now*    as  to  the  Fritz  Mautner  books — Mautner  was  born  In  Prague. 
He  was  the  editor  of  the  Berl Iner  Tagap I  at   [the   day's  newspaper].      He 
wrote  novels,    poems,    stories*   and  he  was   Interested   In  philosophy. 
The  Rich  brothers  built  him  a  big  house  at  Bodensee*  on  the  border 
with   Switzerland.      He  wrote  three  phi  I  osop  lea  I    works:     The  Critique 
of  Language.    The  Dictionary   of   Philosophy,    and  four  vol umes  on 
Morgan! and  (concerning  Eastern  Europe).     They  were  written   In  plain 
German.      I   bought  them   when    I   was  twenty  years  old.     Die  Futur,   under 
Maximilian  Harden*    published  political   articles  and  excerpts  of 
articles  of    Interest*    Including  six  to  eight  pages  on  Mautner.      It 
may  be  I  n  the  U.C.  I  I  brary.      I  had  more  books*  but  I  gave  a 
collection  of  the  writings  of   Mautner  to  Lydla*    and  the  others  to  the 
Leo  Baeck  Jewish   library    In  New  York. 

Museums  tend  to  forget  you — after  they  have  your  valuable 
artifacts.     For  example*    I   gave  the  Palace  of  the  Legion  of  Honor 
museum    In  San  Francisco  a  Japanese  scroll.      I    loaned  them  a  letter  by 
a  friend*    written  In  German*    stating  that  the  scroll   was  from  the 
twelfth  century  to  thirteenth  century*    Japan.      It  noted  that  the 
scroll   was  partly   destroyed,   but  of  great  charm.     Two  years   later 
they  couldn't  find  these   Items. 

Another  time,   the  Palace  of  the  Legion  of  Honor  exhibited  Greek 
coins*   and  a  few  years   latei — one  hundred  Byzantine  coins.     The 
director  of  an  unnamed  museum   In  Los  Angeles  asked  me  to  lend  them  my 
gold  coins.     He  said  that  If  they  were  available  to  buy*   he  would  buy 
them.      I   asked  the  Legion  of  Honor  to  send  them   to  Los  Angeles — by 
telephone.     They  were  never  on  exhibit  there.     They  were  kept  In  a 
room*   where  they   were  stolen.      I   had  another  unpleasant  experience 
with  the  Metropolitan  Museum  of  Art  In  New  York.      It  concerned  prices 
set  for  medals. 

The  Dumbarton  Oaks  Museum  was  my  only  good  experience.     At  that 
time  there  was  no  Interest  In  the  dollar  value  of   things  exhibited. 
Now   they   want  to  know   about  the  future  value. 


1  93 


Cans:      I    love  the  University  of  California — In  the  best  sense  of   the  word. 
My   seals  given  to  the  university  are  worth  at   least  $500,000.      I   got 
mature  at  age  ninety.      It  was  at  age  ninety-two  that    I   adopted  my 
second  daughter*    Lucy. 


October   20.    1985 


A  New   Scrapbook 

Gans:     Here  comes  a  story  on  the  scrapbooks. 

I   have  to  go  back  to  the  time  of  my   Immigration  to  this  country 
In  December  of   1937.      It  was  a  very   difficult  decision  to  make,   but 
we  made   It,   and  Asya  particularly   was  a  great  help  and  support.     Our 
great  apartment  In  Berlin  was  full   of   all    kinds  of   things.     We  knew 
how   the  situation  was   In  this  country,   so  everything  bulky:     big 
furnitures,    carpets,    pictures,    had  to  be  left,    and  had  to  be 
liquidated  for  a  "song"  In  Germany.      But  still   there  were  a   lot  of 
other  things   left,  and  only  a  few   things  we  took  with  us.     Here,   my 
good  relations  with  the  German  Relchsbank  facilitated  what  we  took 
with   us.      I    could  bring  my  coin  collection  out   In  a  legal   way. 
Nevertheless,    there  were  two   large  Lit  vans  that  had  to  be  f  II  led 
with   small    kinds  of  furniture  and  other  things.      It  all    had  to  be 
done   under   the  supervision  of  officers  from   the  Nazi   controller. 
Each  and  every  book  was  opened,    whether  or  not  there  was  money 
hidden,    or  there  were  other  things  which  were  not  al  lowed  to  be  taken 
out  by   the  Nazis.      A  very   unpleasant  eight  days,    but  finally 
everything  was  stowed  away.     What   It  was,   very  often    I    didn't  even 
know.     Old  suitcases  and  so  on. 

When    I   arrived   In  New   York,    I   found,    fortunately,    a  nice 
landlord  who  allowed  me  to  stow   certain  pieces  of   furniture,   etc.,    In 
the  basement.      He  even  built  a  partition  for  that  purpose.      In  New 
York  we  had  three  different  apartments:     first  on  Staten    Island,    from 
1938  to  1940;   from   1940  to  1948,   on   Madison  Avenue   In   Manhatten, 
where   I   already  had  an  office  combined  with  my  residence;   and  then  we 
had  a  final    apartment  on  101    West  55th  Street,    equally  for  office  and 
residence,   and  that  was  fortunate  because  It  made   life  easier  and 
cheaper. 

In  1953   we  moved  to  Berkeley  where  our  house  was  built,    and  here 

I    could  finally  easily   store  what  was  still  left.     Naturally,    In  the 

course  of    my   New    York  times,    the  less  bulky  but  still    large  things 
were   I IquI dated. 


194 


Cans:     Here  In  Berkeley    I   finally  tried  to  find  out  what    I   really  had.      I 
found  one  black   lacquer  box*    a  small   case   In  which   I  had  collected 
all  of  my  correspondence   I  had  saved  from  Germany:      my  correspondence 
with  Paula  which  was  so  close  to  my  heart,    letters  from  my  mother* 
and  other  things.     I  Just  kept  the  box.     I   looked  at  It  once  In  a 
while*    and  on  one  dreary  evening— when  Asya  was  In  a  concert — I 
opened  It.     All   of  the  old  memories  came  back. 

It  was  wintertime.     There  was  a  fire  In  my  fireplace,   and  the 
thought  came*   "What  will   happen  with  this  correspondence  when   I   go?" 
I   was  already  nearly  seventy,   so   I   thought:     •This  correspondence  was 
Holy  to  me.      It  should  not  be  seen  by   strangers."     At  that  time    I 
decided.   "Why   should   I   bother  Lydla*   the  only  person  who  was  really 
near  tome.      I  will    burn   It  up."     So.   everything  was  burned. 

Retrospective*    I   see   It  with  a  sad  eye.      I   believe   I    did  the 
right  thing,   but   I  miss  something  that  .Is  gone  forever.     Then*    years 
later.    I   found  another  suitcase  filled  with  scores  of   photos*   photo 
albums*   and  scraps  of   paper.     And  then    I   found  In  that  suitcase  on 
letter  of   my   fathers,    written  to  me  when   I  was  six  years  old.     And 
that  gave  me  the  Idea  to  make  a  scrapbook — a  scrapbook  simply  for  my 
family.      I   found  among  the  photos  one  small   photo  of  my  father*   and  I 
found  another  small    photo  of   my  mother.      I   was   looking:     "Is  there 
not  a   letter?",   and   I   found  a   letter  from  my   mother,    too.      I    found  a 
letter  from  my  then  already  dead  brother,    Slgmund*   who  died  In  the 
same  year  as  my   father  did.     Then   later  on*   when    I    looked  at  the 
scraps*    I  found  a  few  notes  which  Paula  had  sent*   so   I   had  her 
handwriting  again.      It  was  scraps  of   paper*    quotations  she   loved, 
which  she  had  written,   again  In  her  own  handwriting.      It  was, 
following  up*    Inserted  In  my  scrapbook*    so  I   have  something  from 
Paula   left.     Again    I    looked*   and   I   found  among  the  photos  from  our 
house  notes  that  needed  to  be   In  writing  In  the  scrapbook.     The 
scrapbook  Itself  will   tell    It. 

Now   the   Idea  of   a  scrapbook  was  establ  (shed*   and  now  came  Asya, 
now  came  Lydla*    now  came  everything.     The  photo  albums  are  preserved 
Independent  from   the  scrapbook*   and  now   Lydla  has   It.     Slowly  the 
scrapbook  was  filled,  mostly  with  trivia*  small   memorabilia,   old 
picture  cards  from  friends.    Christmas  cards  which  were  nice,   our  own 
Christmas  cards  which*   so  to  say*   accompany  the  story  of  Numismatic 
Fine  Arts*   and  a  second  scrapbook  became  necessary.     And  here  came 
correspondence  from  person   Important  even  for  this  country*    which 
seemed  to  be  worthwhile  to  keep,    and  that  might  be  of   Importance  for 
some  later  historian. 

So  the  scrapbook   Includes  personal    loves  and  perhaps  also  a  few 
Important  things  from  Germany,   memories  from  my  friend  Karl   Krueger, 
who  played  an  Important  part   In  Germany   with  the   I.G. 
Far  ben  Industrie,    and  also  In  politics — all   are  there.       I   really    don't 
know  now  what  Is  In  there.     There  came  things  which  were  Important 
for  Natasha  CBorovsky]  for  her  writings.     All    poems  which    I    loved   I 


195 


Gans:     preserved  before  some  of  them  were  printed.     But  anyway,    they 

constitute,    for  the  first  two  years  of   my    loneliness  [after  Asya's 
passing],    things  of  value. 


Then  my  children  started  giving  me  pleasant  things,   and  that  was 
especially  on  my  birthday  when    I   was  ninety-five.     All    that  happened 
then  and  there  was  preserved   In  a  third  scrapbook,    and  I    will   keep 
that  third  scrapbook  with  some  memorabilia  In  connection  with 
birthdays  and  celebrations  which  might  occur. 


Monday,    October  21,    1985 

Gans:     Now   my    life  has  taken  a  turn  and  a  fourth   scrapbook  has  to  be  done. 
This  new  scrapbook  starts  with  Polly  [Horn]:      It  starts  with  a  new 
family.     This  new   family,   which   Is  Lucy  [Kaplan],   who  was  moved 
closer.    In  the  studio.      I   cannot  Include  Lydla — Lydla  again  has  to 
fol  low   her  spirit  and  her  walk  of    life.      She  will   go  to  China  next 
year  and    I   will    see  her  even   less  than    I   have  so  far.     But   I   realize 
the  necessity.      She  Is  doing  a   lot  for  this  country— for  everybody— 
and  that  Is  her  own  life,   which  does  not  cause  an   Impediment  to  our 
mutual    love  or  feelings  of  togetherness.     On  the  other  hand,    I  am 
happy  to  say  that  Lucy  has  two  daughters  who  have  real  ly  become 
grandchildren,    and  the  Kaplan  family  and  the  Gans  family  are  one.      I 
hope  that   It  Is  the  same  way  with  Polly. 

Saturday,    October  26,    1985 

Gans:     They   al  I    shared  with  me  their  art,    and  they  al  I   gave  me  a  share  of 

their   life.     At  my    last  birthday   party  Lucy  found  the  words:     "We  are 
not  only   all    the  friends  of  Edward — we  have  all   become  friends  with 
each  other."     I    do  not  forget  to  write  about  Wolfgang  [Helmpel],  with 
whom   we  really  have  an  equal    share  of  my    life  with  seals  and  my    love 
for  the  University  [of   California]. 

Now    let  me  say  a  few   words  separately  about  the  scrapbooks 
proper.      I   think  the  decision  should  be  with  Lydla  and  Lucy.      As   long 
as  both  are   Interested   In  preserving  them,    they   should  keep  them. 
But  there  will   come  the  time  when  they  will    be  worthless  for  Lydla's 
or  Lucy's  children  or  for  anybody  else — except  a  historian,    who  might 
find  this  or  that  of   Interest  to  him  when  he  wants  to  be  Informed 
about   life   In  Germany  or   In  this  country. 

The  Bancroft  Library  has  expressed   Interest   In  the  scrapbook. 
So  let  them   decide  and  let  Lydfa  and  Lucy   decide   If  they   want   It.     I 
have  no  objection.      I   could  well    Imagine  that  such  remarks  as    I   made 
and  collected  from  Germany   and  from  this  country  are  of    Interest. 


196 


Gans:      I   also  have  a  few  words  to  say  about  my   books.      I   had  a  very    large, 
comprehensive   library    In  Germany.     What  was  to  be  done?     All   of  the 
luxury  bindings,   all    the  valuable  books,   which  were  destined  to  be 
for  a  life  of    leisure  after  retirement,    had  to  remain   In  Germany  and 
were  disposed  of   In  Berlin.      Everything  else   I   took  to  New   York. 
Very  early    I  had  to  make  room  for  acquiring  numismatic  books  and  new 
books    I    needed,   so  almost  all    classical    literature  had  to  be  disposed 
of.      As  to  the  classics  that  had  to  remain,    only  Goethe,    Heine, 
Shakespeare,   and   Ibsen  were  salvaged. 

Then   In  Berkeley  the  real    collection  began  here  for  numismatic 
material,   and   I  have  a  very   Important  library  which  was  eventually 
acquired  by  a  professor  at  UCLA.     Additional    acquirements  also   later 
constituted  gifts  to  UCLA.     Then,   when  my   Interest  switched  to  seals, 
I   had  to  acquire  a  seal    library,    which   Includes,    I   believe,    Important 
Items  and  It  constitutes  a  part  of   my  seal    collection  which  also  goes 
as  a  gift  to  U.C.   Berkeley. 

I   had  tried  to  bring  smal ler  and  also   larger  objects  of  my  other 
collection  of  objects  of  art  to  this  country.      All    of  these  had  to  be 
sold  during  the   last  almost  fifty  years   In  this  country.     What   Is 
left  at  this  moment  Is  a  cabinet  In  which  my  valuable  Items  were 
lodged.      It  Is  still    for  sale.      I   have  a  small   cabinet  to  keep  my 
glass  objects  In,    which  takes  some  space  In  my  room,   and  a  small 
round  table  and  one  chali — thafs  all.      All   of   my   violins  and  other 
Instruments  were  sold  or  given  away.     A  very   large  Chinese  pot  was  a 
gift,   together  with  many  other  things,   to  Mills  College,   because  our 
friend  there  was  Professor  Alfred  Neumler.     Other   Items  were  a  gift 
to  the  Museum    In  Omaha,    because  my   friend  Dr.    Judd  was  a   leading 
person   In  that  city.     And  many   other  things  were   liquidated,    just  to 
make  a   I Iving. 

This  year,    1985,    Is  a  turning  point   in  my    life.      A  retrospective 
summary  of  the  past  decade  seems  to  be   in  order.      During  the  last  few 
years  of  Asya's   life  she  was  not  well   and  blind.      During  the   last 
year  she  was  tormented  by  cancer.     She  passed  away   In  August  1979, 
and   I   was  alone — alone  at  ninety-two.      My  daughter  Lydla  lives  In 
Pomona.     She  Is  a  professor  of  mathematics  at  the  California  State 
Polytechnic  University.      She    Is   deeply    Interested   in  her   profession. 
She  cares  for  the  underdog.     She  fights  for  the   liberation  of  women, 
and  Is  a  fanatic  traveler — all   over  the  world.     Besides,    she  has 
three  children   In  their   late  twenties.     All    three  children  are   lovely 
persons.      The  eldest,    Laurie,    Is  a  professional    musician.      She  plays 
the  violin  and  the  viola,   and  Is  a  member  of  the  Santa  Rosa  Symphony 
orchestra.      Gregory    Is  a  medical    doctor  on  the  East  Coast.      He   is 
married  and  has  three  children.     The  youngest,   Nina,    Is  married  and 
has  one  child.     She  works  for  the  University  of  San  Francisco  and 
dances  ballet.      We  all    feel    close  to  one  another,    but  they   have  to 
lead  their  own   lives.     So   I   had  to  look  for  friends. 


197 


Gans:     An  old  acquaintance  developed   Into  a  close  friendship — Natasha 
Borovsky.      She  had  just  finished  her  books.    Lost  Heritage  and 
Memoirs  of  a  Princess,  and   I   was  called  to  proofread  and  discuss 
these  works.      It  was  a  pleasant  task,   requiring  my  attention  for 
several   years,  and  a  warm  friendship  developed.     The  latter  book  was 
recently   published   under  the  title  A  Daughter  of  the  Nobility,   and 
her  other  books  will   follow    In  the  years  to  come.     Publishers  and 
author  expect  world-wide  recognition.     This  hope   Is  naturally  shared 
by  me.  and   I    do  not  need  to  add  further  words  about  her  personality, 
or  that   I   expect   It  to  be  known  world-wide. 

Natasha   Introduced  me  to  her  friend  Lucy   Kaplan.      Natasha's 
dedication  of   a  number  of   poems  to  Lucy   had  aroused  my  curiosity. 
When   I  first  met  Lucy    I  was  struck  by  her  art.    by  her  personality,    by 
her   straightforwardness — not  making  any  concessions.     She  could  well 
have  been  a   daughter  of   my  first  wife,   Paula.     Paula  and   I   had  the 
hope  for  an  offspring,    but  did  not  fulfull   our  hopes.      I   found  It 
natural    to  adopt  Lucy  as  my   daughter.     Lucy  has  brought  up  two 
daughters,    who  promise  to  be  her   likeness,   and  our    love  for  one 
another   Is  mutual. 

A  short  while   later  the  family  of  my   late  brother.   Robert.    In 
Paris,   brought  me  together  with  Dr.  Tom  Jamleson  and  his  wife  Roslyn. 
They    live  close-by.      Roslyn   Is  writing  her  Ph.D.    thesis  on  Rodin,    and 
at  times  we  could  discuss  problems,   and   I   could  provide  some 
translations.      Here  again,    friendship  has  developed. 

A  casual   meeting  with  Carol    Eisenberg  developed  Into  another 
kind  of   friendship.     Carol    Is  a  real    musician   In  virtually  every 
field.     She  improvises  music  when  accompanying  ballet  students,    she 
teaches  piano,   she  cultivates  classical    music,   and  still    Is  familiar 
with  anything  created  in  modern  times.     And  what  Is  the  most 
Important  thing  for  me,    Is  that  she  revived  my  old  Interest  In  music. 
During  my   life  with  Asya,   music  was  for  fifty  years  the  main  theme, 
but  any   activity    In  music  had  been  abandoned  for  the  last  twenty 
years.     Now.    I  have  piano  lessons  with  Carol,    and  with  arthritic 
fingers,   and  without  vision.      I   have  even  made  occasional    attempts  at 
composing. 

In  this  connection    I   must  also  mention  Julie  Provost,    who 
happens  to  be  the  secretary   at  the  Center  for  Reduced  Vision  at  U.C. 
Berkeley.      Julie  helped  me  at  a  critical   time,    when   I   was  losing  my 
vision.      In  spite  of   being  twice  Inflicted  with  cancer,    fortunately 
now   cured,    she  Is  a  devout  Catholic,   only    Interested  In  helping 
people  and  organizations,    and   In  this  respect    I    learned  a   lot.      Thank 
you,    Jul ie. 

When    I    lost  my  vision— I   believe   It  was  In  the  Fall  of  1984— all 
of  my  aforementioned  friends  wanted  me  to  relieve  my  being  alone. 
After  fifty  years  of   happy   married   life,    I   had  found  living  alone  to 
be  a   devastating  experience,    In  spite  of  the  loving  attentions  of   the 


198 


Gans:     aforementioned  people.     Now    I   could  not  read  or  write,    and    I   was  more 
alone  than  ever.     They  made  arrangements  among  themselves  to  render 
me  company,  and  the   love  thusly  expressed  was  enheartenlng.     But  they 
all    had  their  work,   their  families,   their  duties,   and  It  became 
necessary  to  find  a  companion.     Here   I    can  only  say  that  the  Good 
Lord  went   Into  action.     On  January  20,    1985,    Polly  appeared,    and  a 
companionship  was  arranged  strictly  on  a  professional    basis.      Polly's 
life   Is  devoted  strictly  to  holistic  health,   and   I   am  the   lucky  one 
on  whom  her  gifts  are  extended.     Polly's  time  Is  divided  between  her 
studies  at  Kennedy  University  at  Orlnda,    and  at  other    Institutions, 
and  on  me. 

The  word  "alone"  that  had  persecuted  me  for  the   last  six  years 
has  now  disappeared.     Within  a  few  hours  there  Is  always  Polly  who 
can  actively  help.      I   have  become  a  taker,    and  a  deep  friendship  has 
developed  over  the  course  of  the   last  nine  months,  and  Polly  has 
become  a  member  of  the  family.     My  two  daughters  and  their  children 
love  Polly,    and  Polly  reciprocates  their   love.      I    can  repeat,    "alone" 
Is  gone.     The  most  wonderful    thing   Is  that  Polly  does  not  take  care 
only  of  my  physical   necessities,    but  she  shares  all    of  my   Interest  In 
literature,    music,    art,    etc.     Let  her   In  the  following  write  a  few 
words  about  herself. 

I   have  spoken  here  about  my   new    life  after  Asya  has  gone,   but   I 
do  not  wish  to  leave  out  those  who  were  old  friends  already   during  my 
married   life,   and  who  continue  to  be  a  source  of  pleasure   In  my    life. 
There  was  Norma  and  Arthur  Schroeder,    whom  we  met  within  one  month  of 
our  arrival,    In  1938,    in  Staten   Island,    New   York.     Soon  after  their 
son  was  born  (he  Is  the  well-known   doctor,   Steve  Schroeder),    they 
moved  to  Chicago  and  then  to  Berkeley,    where  chance  brought  us 
together  again,   and  where  the  friendship  was  reestablished  and  Is 
lasting  even  until    today.      Other   friends  are  Fred  and  Helen  Stress. 
Helen  played  the  cello  part  In  our  regular  chamber  music  evenings, 
since  they   started   In  1953,    until    Asya's  vision  forced  her  to  stop. 
With  Fred  I   could  share  many  mutual    Interests,    and   I    daresay  close 
friendship  here   Is  everlasting. 

My  profession  and  my  col lectlng  activities  brought  me  together 
with  a  great  number  of  scientists  at  the  university   here   In  Berkeley. 
I   do  not  dare  to  give  names  because   I  am  afraid  I   might  omit  one  or 
the  other,    and   I    don't  want  to  hurt  anybody.      Some  have  passed  away. 
Some  are  retired.      And  among  those  who  are  stll  I   active  there  Is  one 
whom   I  have  to  mention.      It  Is  Professor  Wolfgang  Helmpel,   whom    I 
consider  to  represent  his  Department  of   Near  Eastern  Studies.     A 
close  friendship  has  developed  during  the  last  ten  or  fifteen  years. 
I   always  admired  the  wide  scope  of  his  Interests.     Today  we  could 
converse  on  Sumer,   and  then  on   dogs,    and  on  astronomical    events,    on 
Indian  heiroglyphics,    on  Goethe,    and  on  all    of   the  seals   in  my 
collection.     Wolfgang's  Interest  prompted  me  to  make  my   gift  of   my 
seal    collection  to  the  university. 


1  99 


Gans:      I  have  previously  mentioned  my  seal   collection.     That  we  named  the 
collection  "comparative"  was  an   Idea  which   was  born  and  uttered  at 
the  same  moment*   mutual  ly.      It  has  grown  and  grown  to  nearly  a 
thousand  seals*    and  constitutes  a  gift  to  the  university.      It 
Includes  seals  and  books.      Wolfgang  takes  care  of   the  collection. 
Hopeful ly    It  will    continue  to  grow  and  become  ever  more  useful    for 
teaching  purposes.      I   had  the  pleasure  recently  to  be  present  when 
Wolfgang  conducted  a  three-hour  seminar  on  these  seals  for  a  group  of 
students.      It  was  proof  for  me  that  my    Idea  of  assisting  a   learned 
Institution   fs  perhaps  even  more   Important  than  mere  exhibition. 

Let  me  end  my  story  of  my   I Ife  for  the  past  six  years  since  Asya 
has   left  with  these  words:     All   of  the  foregoing — Lydla,   Natasha, 
Lucy,    and  then  Roslyn,    Carol,    and  Julie,    and  finally  Polly — all    of 
them   shared  with  me  their  art,    their  wisdom,    and  part  of  their 
experience,   and  all    of   them   shared  part  of  their   lives  with  me.     And 
here   Is  my   thank  you. 


Two  Stories 


Fowler  McCormack 


Gans:      In  the  nineteen  fifties  a  friend  of   mine   In  Chicago  Introduced  me  to 
Mr.   McCormack.     Mr.   McCormack  Invited  me  for  supper  at  his  club   In 
Chicago.      He  had   lost  his  pocket  piece — an  extremely  rare  Greek 
tetradrachm.     His  cherished  pocket  piece  had  been   lost  and  he  wanted 
to  replace   It.      It  turned  out  to  be  an   Impossible  task.      This 
particular  coin  had  not  turned  up  during  the  recent  fifty  years.      I 
recommended  other  pocket  pieces,   and  he  found  one.      It  was  a 
beautiful    Syracusan  Decadrachm  which  only   Dr.  Jacob  HIrsch  could 
supply.     On  this  particular  evening  our  conversation  went   In  all 
directions,   and  Mr.   McCormack  mentioned  that  he  was  leaving  the  next 
day   for  New   York,    by  plane.     This  prompted  me  to  ask  him  what  plane 
he  was  using,    and  this  prompted  me  to  make  a  reservation  for  the  same 
plane.      We  "met"  and   I   asked  him  whether  he  would  see  some  other 
coins.     And   Indeed  his  answer  was  affirmative.      I   had  a  good 
selection  with  me,    Intended  for  an  exhibit  at  a  forthcoming 
convention,    and  the  spark   Ignited.     He  selected  ten  or  fifteen  coins 
for  the  beginning.     This  was  certainly  the  highest  value  deal    I   had 
ever  made.     The  urge  to  collect  coins  faded,   but  we  remained  friends 
and  he  exchanged  Christmas  cards  with  me  from  his  ranch    In  Arizona. 


200 


Dr.    J.   H.   Judd 


Gans:     This   Is  about  a  friendship  that  extended  over  several    decades*   always 
quite  formal. 

I    met  Dr.    J.   H.    Judd  probably  a  year  after  the  establ  ishment  of 
my  Numismatic  Fine  Arts  firm.     At  that  time  his   Interest  was   centered 
on  American  coins.     At  his  home   In  Omaha,    Nebraska*    he  had  reserved  a 
room   In  the  basement  of  his  house  for  his  coin  collections.     A  steel 
door,    which  he  had  acquired  from  an  insolvent  bank  somewhere,    guarded 
this  room.      I   cannot  say  with  certainty  whether  he  had  owned  at  that 
time  a  few  Greek  or  Roman  coins,    but  one  thing  Is  for  sure,    that  he 
had  never  before  seen  such  an  assemblage  of    Interesting  Greek  coins 
as  my  stock  formed.     He  started  to  buy  a  few  Greek  coins  on  every  one 
of  his  visits  to  New  York,   and  our  friendship  started  to  grow.     After 
a  few  years  had  passed,    he   invited  Asya  and  me  for  a  visit  at  his 
home  in  Omaha,    whch  turned  out  to  be  a  warm  affair.     He  had  Invited, 
among  others,    the  president  and  the  director  of  the  Omaha  Museum,    and 
In  turn   I  visited  the  museum   during  repeated  visits   In  coming  years. 
I   remember   I   gave  the  museum  two  Renaissance  terra  cotta  busts  in 
appreciation  of  our  friendship  with  Dr.    Judd.      During  another  visit 
with  Dr.    Judd  at  Omaha  he  brought  me  to  the  Omaha  Library,    pointing 
to  a  magnificent  tetradrachm  of  Queen  Cleopatra,    which  probably   Is  a 
unique  specimen,   or  at   least  of   extreme  rarity. 

His  coin  room  was  changed  and  one  side  of   the  room  was  dedicated 
to  classical    coins  and  the  other  side  for  American  coins.      Dr.    Judd's 
eyes  were  of  extreme  acuity.     He  could  detect  the  slightest 
Irregularity,    which  became  Important  when  he  started  to  specialize  In 
Greek  coins  which  bore  the  signature  of   the  artist  who  made  the  dies. 
In  1953,    after  we  moved  to  Berkeley,    It  was  a  pleasant  coincidence 
that  his  only  daughter  also  had  moved  to  San  Francisco  and  was 
married   In  the  Bay  Area — which   prompted  Dr.    Judd  and  his  wife  to 
visit  the  area  at   least  once  a  year.     Our  friendship  continued  in   the 
most  pleasant  way,   and  at  his  every   visit  he  came  to  see  me,   too.     By 
1965  he  had  given  up  all    American  coins,    and  his   Interest  was 
entirely  devoted  to  classical    coins. 

This  particular  year,   1965,   will    always  remain   In  my  memory 
because   It  was  the  last  time   I   saw  Dr.   Judd.     At  this  visit  he  had 
selected  ten   coins  'ton  approval."     This  was  the   usual    procedure. 
About  a  week   later    I   got  a  call    from  Dr.    Judd.     A  robbery   had  been 
committed  at  his  house.     The  whole  collection  was  stolen,    Including 
the  ten  coins.     My  coins  were  covered  by    Insurance,    so    I    was  not 
worried  about  the  loss.     Of   Incalculable  Importance  was  the   loss  for 
Dr.    Judd.      His  antiquated  Insurance  policy   had  never  been  brought  up- 
to-date.     A  year   later    I   had  a   letter  from   his  wife  saying  that  he 
had  suffered  an   incurable  brain    Illness.       I    have  never   seen  any 
member  of   the  family  again. 


201 


Gans:      It  must  have  been   In  the  early   nineteen  seventies  that  the  Insurance 
company  contacted  me  and  advised  me  that  perhaps  a  part  of  the  Judd 
collection  had  been  recovered*   and  they  asked  whether    I   would  be  able 
to   Identify   the  coins.     On  my  affirmative  answer   I  was   Invited  to 
Chicago  where  the  FBI  had  the  coins.     The  Insurance  company  had 
reserved  rooms  for  me  at  the  same  club  where  Mr.   McCormack  had  taken 
me  to  lunch.     There  was  a  meeting  with  two  officials  from  the  FBI» 
from  the  police*    and  from  the  Insurance  company*   together  with  my 
wife  and  me — also  with  the  dealer  who  had  kept  these  coins.     There 
were  perhaps  some  forty  or  fifty  coins  which  the  FBI  had  retained. 
Each  one  was  shown  to  me»   and  each  one   I   could   Identify  as  not  being 
the  Judd  property.      Finally  there  came  a  single  Athenian  drachm  from 
the  Archaic  period*    which   I    could  Identify  with  absolute  certainty  as 
being  Judd's  property.      That  was  the  clue.      Where  one  coin   Is*    there 
must  be  others.     A  year  or  two  later  more  coins  were  found*    this  time 
In  San  Francisco.      I   was  called  again  and  this  time  they   were  Judd's 
property.     Again  some  time  later  a  third  group  was  discovered  In 
Canada*    but  this  time   I   was  close  to  ninety  years  old  and  I   did  not 
go.      I  have  heard  that  most  of   the  silver  coins  were  now 
rediscovered*   but  the  most  valuable  gold  coins  were  still   missing. 
The  statute  of   limitations  must  have  played  a  role*    and   I    do  not  know 
how  the  matter  was  settled. 


202 


XVIII      POSTSCRIP7UM-- WRITTEN    IN  MY  HUNDREDTH   YEAR 


June  29,    1987 


Gans:     The  above  story   was  finished  several    years  ago.     Unfortunate 
circumstances  delayed  the  print.     Now    I   have  to  add: 

I    lost  my  vision  some  three  years  ago,    and   I   cannot  read  and 
write.     Fortunately,   Lucy  and  her  two  I  Ively  and   lovely   daughters 
lived  nearby.     Natasha  and  Carol,    a  few   blocks  away.      In  other  hours 
I   had  talking  books  with  sometimes  wonderful   writers. 

Then  two  years  ago,    again  a  miracle  happened.      I   met  Polly  Horn, 
who  Is  a  student  of  holistic  medicine,    which  she  applied  upon  me,    and 
now  Polly   has  become  an  Ideal   companion.     She  made  me  aware  that  I 
have  a  soul,   as  all    my   beloved  ones  have;   that   I   have  a  guiding 
spirit,    a  spirit  which    I    used  to  call   "miracles."     And  best  of   all, 
Polly  removed  a  lock  which  was  before  my  mouth  for  ninety-eight 
years.      I    learned  to  communicate.     Now    I  can  communicate  with 
everybody,    high  and  low,   and  even  with  my  beloved  father,    who  passed 
away   ninety-three  years  ago.      Thank  you,    Pollyl     God  bless  youl 


Another  Postscript 

Gans:  Albert  Einstein  left  these  words  and  Pol  ly  gave  them  to  me,  A  reader 
of  this  story  may  stop  to  listen: 

The  most  beautiful  and  most  profound  emotion 
we  can  experience  Is  the  sensation  of  the  mystical. 
It  Is  the  sower  of  al I  true  science.  He  to  whom 
this  emotion  Is  a  stranger,  who  can  no  longer 
stand  rapt  In  awe,  Is  as  good  as  dead.  That  deeply 
emotional  conviction  of  the  presence  of  a  superior 
reasoning  power,  which  Is  revealed  In  the  Incomprehensible 
universe,  forms  my  Idea  of  God. 

—Albert  Einstein 


Left:   Edward  Cans  at  age  95  in  October  1984, 


Below  left:   Edward  Cans  in  his  sixties, 
ca.  1947. 


Below  right:   Edward  Cans  at  age  25  in  1912 


1 


203 


TAPE  GUIDE  —  Edward  Gans 


Interview  1:  September  22  ,  1983 
tape  1  »  si  de  a 
tape  1  ,  si  de  b 
tape  2,  si  de  a 
tape  2,  si  de  b 
tape  3,  side  a  [side  b  not  recorded] 


Interview  2: 
tape  4, 
tape  4, 
tape  5, 
tape  5, 
tape  6, 
tape  6, 


September  28, 
si  de  a 
si  de  b 
side  a 
si  de  b 
si  de  a 
si  de  b 


1983 


tape  7,   side  a   [first  three-quarters  of   tape] 
insert  from  tape  37,    side  a 
resume  tape  7,    side  a 
tape  7,    si  de  b 


Interview  3: 
tape  8, 
tape  8, 
tape  9, 
tape  9, 


Interview 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 

Interview 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 

Interview 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 


4: 

10, 

10, 

11, 

11, 

5: 

12, 

12, 

13, 

13, 

6: 

14, 

14, 

15, 

15, 


October 
side  a 
side  b 
side  a 
side  b 

October 
side  a 
side  b 
si  de  a 
side  b 

October 
side  a 
side  b 
side  a 
side  b 

November 
si  de  a 
side  b 
side  a 
side  b 


3,   1983 


10,    1983 


31,    1983 


7,    1983 


1 

8 
15 
19 
23 


25 

28 

30 

32 

34 

38 

41 

42 

44 

45 


51 
53 
55 
57 


58 
62 
64 
66 


68 
71 
73 
74 


77 
79 
81 
82 


204 


ntervlew 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 

7: 
16, 
16, 
17, 
17, 
18, 

November 
side  a 
side  b 
side  a 
side  b 
side  a  [ 

14,    1983 


[side  b  not  recorded] 


Interview  8:  November  23,  1983 

tape  19,  side  a 

tape  19,  side  b 

tape  20,  side  a 

tape  20,  side  b 

tape  21,  side  a  [side  b  not  recorded] 


Interview  9:     November  30, 
tape  22,   side  a 
tape  22,    side  b 
tape  23,   side  a  [si  de 


Interview 
tape 
tape 
tape 
tape 


10:      December  7, 
24,   si  de  a 

24,  side  b 

25,  side  a 
25,    si  de  b 


1983 


b  not  recorded] 


1983 


Interview   11:      December   14,    1983 

tape  26,  side  a 

tape  26,  side  b 

tape  27,  si  de  a 

tape  27,  side  b 

tape  28,  side  a  [side  b  not  recorded] 

Interview   12:     January  4,    1984 

tape  29,  side  a 

tape  29,  side  b 

tape  30,  si  de  a 

tape  30,  side  b 

Interview   13:     January  25,    1984 

tape  31,  side  a 

tape  31,  side  b 

tape  32,  side  a 

tape  32,  side  b 

tape  33,  side  a  [side  b  not  recorded] 


Interview   14: 
tape  34, 
tape  34,    si  de  b 
tape  35,   side  a 
tape  35,    si  de  b 


February  9,    1984 
side  a 


84 
86 
87 
89 
91 


93 
95 
97 
98 
100 


101 
103 
105 


106 
108 
110 
114 


117 
119 
120 
121 
122 


123 
125 
127 
129 


131 
133 
135 
138 
145 


146 
148 
149 
151 


205 


Interview  15:  May  6,  1984 

tape  36,  si  de  a 

tape  36,  s! de  b 

Interview  17:  December  20,  1984 

tape  38,  si de  a 

tape  38,  si de  b 

tape  39,  side  a  [side  b  not  recorded] 

Interview  18:  January  8,  1985 

tape  40,  si de  a 

tape  40,  si de  b 

Interview  19:  August  28,  1985 

tape  41 ,  si de  a 

tape  41,  si de  b 


153 
161 


166 
167 
167 


170 
172 


173 
181 


206 


APPENDIX 


Herman  and  Salman  Schocken,  by  Norman  Davis  207 

The  Edward  Gans  Collection  of  Ancient  Jewelry,  Catalog,  Auction 
No.  I,  Summa  Galleries,  Inc.  (Beverly  Hills,  California). 

September  18,  1981  212 

Coins,  Mail  Bid  Sale,  April  19,  I960,  Bauer  Collection  237 

Glossery  244 


207 


HERMAN   AND  SALMAN   SCHQCKEN.    by   Norman    Dav  1 S 

My   friend  Edward  Gans  of  Berkeley   has  asked  for  any  recollections   I 
may  have  of  our  mutual   friend,    Salman  Schocken,    for  use  In  the 
recording  of   his  oral    history. 

I   begin  with  memories  of  Salman  Schocken1  s  brother*   Herman* 
whom    I   first  met  In  1939,    through  the  Federated  Jewish  Fund  of 
Seattle.      At  the  time,    Herman  was  devoting  himself  to  the  task  of 
meeting  and  placing  within  the  community  what  became  a  consistent 
trickle  of  German  Jewish  refugees,    coming  to  Seattle  by  way  of 
Vladlvostock.     He  would  be  down  at  the  dock  to  meet  every   ship  from 
that  area,    and  take  over  the  three  or  four  people  that  came  with  most 
ships.     He  would  help  them  through  customs  and  Immigration,    then  find 
them   a  temporary  home,    and  later  get  local    employers  to  find  work  for 
them.      It  was  a  task  that  required  mountains  of   determination  and 
goodwill.      He  had  both. 

Meanwhile,    now  and  again,   Herman  would  tell   me  of  his  life  and 
family.     There  were  three  Schocken  brothers,   Salman,    Herman,    and  a 
third  whose  name  escapes  me.     Salman  and  this  other  brother  were 
enormously  helpful    In  building  up  a  chain  of   large  department  stores 
In  the  major  cities  of   post-First  World  War  Germany. 

But  Herman  wanted  no  part  of  the   life  that  was  entailed  In  this 
kind  of   business.     He  was  the  youngest  of   the  three,    and  he   left 
Germany  for  the  American  West.     He  worked  for  a  while  operating  a 
small    fruit  canning  plant  In  Yaklma,    Washington,    and  It  was  there 
that  he  met  his  wife  and  married  her.     She  was  a  Quaker.     She  did  not 
convert,   nor   did  he.      In  due  time  he  retired  from  business  and  came 
to   live   In  Seattle  In  an  apartment  building  on  Boren  Avenue.      I   would 
visit  him  from  time  to  time,    and  we  would  reminisce.     He  was  a  quiet, 
gentle,   and  determined  man,    deeply   Interested   In  Jewish   affairs. 

He  once  told  me  a  tale  of   his  work  for  the  Jewish  children  of 
Germany.     During  the  almost  famine  which  raged  In  Germany  after  the 
First  World  War,    a  plan  was  made  to  send  children  to  live  for  three 
months  at  a  time  with  the  wel  l-to-do  farmers  of   the   Italian  Tyrol, 
where   lots  of   food  had  been  stored  away.     But  how  to  get  the  Ital  lans 
to  agree? 

Herman  was  asked  to  go  to  see  the  Pope  and  ask  him  to  plead 
with  Mussolini  to  help  with  these  pitifully  underfed  children,    Jewish 
and  Gentile  alike.     He  told  of   his  conversation  with  the  Pope,    and   I 
asked,   "What  did  he   look   like?"     Herman  said  he  was  short,    gray- 


?08 


haired*   small*   with  rather  distant  blue  eyes,    and  an  air  of   great 
cleanliness.     And   looking  at  Herman,    he  was  also  describing  himself, 
except  that  he  had  a  smile.     The  Pope  did  help  and  many  young   lives 
were  saved. 

Another  recol lection  of  Herman  Schocken  was  of  the  time  of  my 
brother  Ellls's  death,    at  age  fifty-three,    from  a  single  massive 
heart  attack.      I   had  been  with   him  at  the  time  and,  exhausted  as    I 
was,   could  not  bring  myself  to  go  tell   our  mother  of   It.      Instead — it 
was  at  about  nine  o'clock  In  the  morning — I   went  to  Herman  Schocken, 
and  sat  with  him  for  an  hour,   and  so  composed  myself  enough  to  tel  I 
her. 

And  here  Is  a  short  anecdote  of  the  three  brothers.      They    lived 
In  the  Saxony  town  of  Zwlckaw.      It  was  a  garrison  town  with   stone 
walls  around  It,    but  by  the  last  year  of  World  War   I,   the  garrison 
was   largely  of  old  soldiers,    Incapable  of   field  combat,   and  the 
commanding  officer,   also  a  retired  general.     The  third  Schocken 
brother  also  was  In  uniform,    a  first  lieutenant  with  duties  as 
adjutant  to  the  general.     His  principal    task  was  to  fill    In  the  daily 
report  on  the  strength  of  the  garrison:     how  many  sick,    absent,   etc. 
There  were  the  usual    routine  salutes  between  the  general   and  his 
adjutant,    but  hardly  a  word  more. 

At  last,   one  day  the  General    broke  the  stiff  relationship  that 
had  lasted  for  more  than  a  year,  and  spoke  directly  by    looking  up  to 
his  adjutant  and  saying,    "Lieutenant,    I   have  enquired  about  you,    and 
know  that  you  are  the  head  of  your  Jewish  community  here,    and  wel  I- 
versed  In  the  principles  of  your  religion.      I   have  long  wondered — I 
am  an  old  man — at  the  Jewish  attitude  to   life  after  death.     What  is 
your  belief?11     After  a  moment's  thought,    Schocken  asked   If   he  might 
have  time  to  reflect,   and  asked   If  he  could  try  to  answer  the 
fol lowing  day. 

So  Herman  Schocken  described  how,    that  evening  the  three 
brothers  went  for  their  customary  walk  together.     The  path  around  the 
city   walls  was  only  wide  enough  for  two  abreast,    and  he  was  In  the 
rear  as  the  three  of  them  debated  the  answer  and  agreed  on   It. 

The  following  day,    after  handing   In  the  usual    daily   report,    the 
general   again   looked  up  to  his  adjutant  and  asked,    "What  have  you  for 
me,"  to  which  Schocken  replied,    "We  have  discussed  this  at   length, 
and  have  concluded  that,    In  our  belief,   on   death  the  soul    returns  to 
Its  maker."     The  general    sat  for   a   long  time  pondering,    and  then 
looked  up.     "Yes,"  he  said.     "That  was  my  own  conclusion." 

A  year    later  the  general    died.      He  was  starvation  poor   because 
his  retirement  pension  was  worthless   In  the  face  of   the  enormous 
Inflation  of   those  post-war  years   In  Germany.     But  he  had  one 
treasure,    a   large  silver  bowl    presented  to  an  ancestor  of   his  who  was 
In  command  of   the  Prussian  force  at  the  Battle  of  Waterloo,    and  who 


209 


turned  a  threatened  defeat  Into  a  victory  for  the  British*  with  whom 
Prussia  was  then  allied.  In  his  will  the  general  bequeathed  this 
bowl  to  the  Schockens,  but  the  advent  of  Hitler  necessitated  leaving 
it  behind  when  Salman  Schocken  escaped  from  Germany  to  America. 

I  first  met  Salman  Schocken  In  my  own  home.   It  was  sometime 
after  the  end  of  the  Second  World  War*  and  I  was  asked  to  lend  our 
home  for  an  afternoon  meeting  with  the  members  of  the  board  of  the 
Federated  Jewish  Fund  board*  and  to  meet  an  eminent  Zionist  with  a 
message  from  Israel  to  the  Seattle  community.  He  was  the  man  who  had 
bought  a  vital  piece  of  the  foreshore  at  Haifa  Bay  and  given  It  to 
the  Jewish  National  Fund — one  of  those  German  Jews*  who  had  foreseen 
the  future  of  Germany  and  Its  Jews  under  Hitler  and  had  come  to 
America  with  enough  assets  to  leave  him  Independent*  and  with 
sufficient  coverage  to  continue  to  work  for  Jewish  causes. 

He  had  been  asked  to  tel I  the  tale  of  German  Jewry  to  the 
American  Jewish  world.  He  had  undertaken  the  task*  but  first  had  to 
learn  English.  He  shut  himself  up  for  several  months  with  an  English 
teacher*  and  In  his  sixties  had  acquired  a  good  measure  of  the 
language — enough  to  make  a  twenty  minute  address  to  our  people  at  the 
meeting.  He  had  real  ly  come  out  of  his  way  to  Seattle  to  visit  his 
brother,  Herman  Schocken,  whom  I  knew  and  I  Iked. 

The  story  that  Salman  Schocken  had  to  tell  was  no  different  In 
substance  from  what  one  had  heard  many  tl.mes  before*  but  he  spoke 
with  a  simplicity  and  directness  that  was  quite  moving.   In  a  little 
conversation  we  had  afterwards  he  told  me  he  was  Interested  In  Greek 
coins*  as  I  was,  and  we  Immediately  had  a  special  common  Interest. 
This  was  especial ly  so  after  I  had  taken  him  to  the  Seattle  Art 
Museum  and  shown  him  my  modest  collection  of  Greek  and  Roman 
antiquities. 

At  that  time  I  was  still  In  business,  which  took  me  to  New  York 
several  times  a  year,  and*  finding  a  kindred  soul,  he  would  lunch 
with  me  and  then  show  me  some  of  his  Impressionist  paintings  that  he 
kept  In  an  apartment  not  far  from  Grand  Central  Station.  He  was  In 
the  process  of  disposing  of  some  of  them,  and  used  the  advisory 
services  of  a  Mr.  Rorlmer  of  the  Metropolitan  Museum.   I  recall  him 
showing  me  a  charming  Renoir  painting  of  two  women  hanging  out  the 
wash,  one  stooping  to  a  basket  and  the  other  reaching  up  to  the  line. 
I  asked  If  It  was  for  sale  and  he  said,  "Yes,  at  twenty  thousand 
dollars."  This  was  In  the  days  when  one  did  not  smile  at  the  thought 
of  a  good  Renoir  at  that  price.   I  asked  for  a  day  to  think  It  over, 
and  for  another  look,  but  when  I  phoned  him,  he  said  that  Rorlmer  had 
urged  that  he  keep  that  particular  painting,  so — 

One  time,  he  took  me  out  to  lunch  at  his  home,  about  twenty 
miles  north  of  New  York  City,  a  pleasant,  modest  house  with  one 
charming  feature.  This  was  the  dining  room,  which  was  a  little  long 
and  narrow,  that  had  on  one  side  a  long  window  looking  out  on  a 


210 


stretch  of    lawn  bordered  with  sliver  birch  trees,   a  charming  scene. 
And  along  the  opposite  wall   was  a  painting  of  that  view   from  the 
window*    "as  consolation*11  he  said,    "for  the  dark  hours." 

In  the  same  house*   he  had  one  room   devoted  to  his  collection  of 
the   letters  and  poems  of  Helnrlch  Heine.      I   have  no  knowledge  of 
German,    but  hearing  the  snatches  he  read  from  the  poems,    all   original 
manuscripts  destined  for  his  one-man  museum   In  Jerusalem,   was  a  most 
moving  experience. 

On  one  of  his  visits  to  Seattle  he  asked  me  to  come  up  to  his 
room  at  the  Olympic  Hotel  because  he  had  something  to  show  me.  It 
was  a  small  case  of  twenty-four  gold  Greek  coins,  all  beauties.  He 
said  that  looking  over  and  handling  them  before  turning  to  sleep  was 
the  best  sedative  for  him.  He  was,  and  looked  to  be,  a  demanding 
man,  demanding  of  himself,  as  well  as  of  others,  and  under  his 
surface  calm  there  was  much  tension. 

On  one  of   my  New   York  trips  he  left  a  message  at  my  hotel   that  a 
car  would  pick  me  up  to  take  me  to  an  artist's  studio  to  meet  him. 
When  we  arrived  at  what   looked   like  a  galvanized  barn,    the  studio  of 
the  noted  sculptor  Jacques  Llpschltz,   Schocken  took  me  by  the  arm,   a 
little   Impatiently,      to  show  me  the  head  of  himself  that  Llpschltz 
was  just  finishing.      "What  do  you  think  of    It,"  he   demanded.      And 
then,   as   I  stood  looking  at  It,  he  burst  out,  "I   don't  I  Ike  It;   I 
don't   look   like  that  man."     I   stood  awhile  and   looked,    and  then    I 
took  off  for  a  round  of    looking  over  what  finished  sculptures  there 
were,    stacked  about  the  building. 

I    looked  again  and  again.      The  skull,    the  shape  and  strength  of 
the  head  and  forehead  were  strong  and  right.     But  the  face  was  a 
disaster.     The  eyes  were  small   and  rather  protruding,   the  nose 
squashed  and  sideways,    the  mouth  bitter  and  hard.     And  again  Schocken 
said,    "I    don't   like  that  man.      What  do  you  say?"     I    looked  at 
Llpschltz,   who  turned  away.     He  was  not  going  to  discuss  his  work 
with  me.     And  finally,    I   said,    "What  God  gave  you,    the  bones,    are 
strong  and  handsome.     What  you  have  done  with  the  flesh — you  or 
time — Is  your  responsibility."     Yet  later,    he  did  reconcile  himself 
to  the  sculpture,    and  used   It  as  an   Illustration   In  one  of   the  books 
of   the  Schocken  Press. 

The  next  time   I   saw  that  Salman  Schocken  was  In  Jerusalem.      I 
was  there  as  a   lay  consultant  In  a  dispute  over  the  to-be-built 
Israel    Museum.     Eric  Mendelsohn  had  designed  a  mansion  In  which 
Schocken's  treasures — manuscripts,    coins  and  the   like — were  to  be 
displayed.     When  he  asked  me  what   I   thought  of    It,    I   could  only  say 
that   It  looked  rather  heavy,    and  that  perhaps  a  couple  of  bright 
Persian  carpets   In  the  main  room  would  help.     Later   I   heard  that 
Schocken,    that  same  day,    got  after  Mendelsohn,    who,    at  the  time  was 
also  occupied  with   drawing  up  plans  for  the  Hadassah  Hospital    In 
Jerusalem.     The  result  was  that  Mendelsohn  set  off   for   Damascus  and 


21  I 


brought  back  a  quite  magnificent  mainly  blue  rug  that  made  the  room 
sparkle.     Schocken  was  quietly   proud  of    it,   as   if  he  himself  had 
woven   it. 


Norman  Davis 
December  1983 
Seattle*    Washington 


212 


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AUCTION  I 

ANCIENT  ART 
SEPTEMBER  18,  1981 

ESTIMATES 


*The  Edward  Cans 
Collection  of  Ancient 
Jewelry,  auction  items 
nos.  Ill  to  140 


Lot 


Estimate 


Lot 


Estimate 


Lot 


Estimate 


Lot 


Estimate 


1 

2,000 

36 

6,500 

71 

40,000 

06 

2,500 

2 

2,000 

37 

6,000 

72 

12,000 

07 

2,000 

3 

7,500 

38 

8,000 

73 

20,000 

08 

1,200 

4 

65,000 

39 

8,000 

74 

15,000 

09 

2,500 

5 

16,000 

40 

1,500 

75 

35,000 

10 

5,000 

6 

10,000 

41 

2,000 

76 

25,000 

11 

20,000 

7 

15,000 

42 

15,000 

77 

4,000 

12 

FOR 

8 

15,000 

43 

20,000 

78 

1,500 

13 

1  2,000 

9 

20,000 

44 

5,000 

79 

4,500 

14 

5,000 

10 

40,000 

45 

2,000 

80 

10,000 

15 

FOR 

11 

4,000 

46 

8,000 

81 

3,000 

16 

25,000 

12 

12,000 

47 

2,500 

82 

2,000 

17 

8,000 

13 

10,000 

48 

6,500 

83 

5,000 

18 

5,000 

14 

7,500 

49 

FOR 

84 

800 

19 

15,000 

15 

8,000 

50 

7,500 

85 

600 

20 

4,000 

16 

30.000 

51 

15,000 

86 

600 

21 

1,500 

17 

3,500 

52a&  b 

10,000 

87 

800 

22 

FOR 

18 

2,000 

53  a&b 

15,000 

88 

2,500 

23 

FOR 

19 

2,500 

54 

3,000 

89 

500 

24 

7,500 

20 

1,500 

55 

6,000 

90 

1,500 

25 

5,000 

21 

3,500 

56 

15,000 

91 

1,500 

126 

8,000 

22 

3,000 

57 

25,000 

92 

1,500 

127 

5,000 

23 

FOR 

58 

FOR 

93 

2,000 

128 

8,000 

24 

8,000 

59 

FOR 

94 

2,000 

29 

8,000 

25 

12,000 

60 

25,000 

95 

5,000 

130 

7,500 

26 

FOR 

61 

25,000 

96 

7,500 

31 

7,500 

27 

8,000 

62 

15,000 

97 

2,000 

32 

3,500 

28 

10,000 

63 

8,000 

98 

10,000 

33 

25,000 

29 

25,000 

64 

10,000 

99 

20,000 

34 

FOR 

30 

10,000 

65 

7,500 

100 

5,000 

35 

3,500 

31 

2,000 

66 

15,000 

101 

2,000 

36 

10,000 

32 

2,000 

67 

5,000 

102 

1,500 

37 

20,000 

33 

12,000 

28 

15,000 

103 

1,000 

38 

6,000 

34 

12,000 

69 

20,000 

104 

200 

39 

4,500 

35  a&  b 

8,000 

70 

20,000 

105 

400 

40 

1,000 

*POR-  price  on  request 


P.O.  Box  6428/342  North  Rodeo  Drive/Beverly  Hills,  California  90212/Telephone:  213/278-4434 


214 


TH 
ALL 


AUCTION  I 

ANCIENT  ART 
SEPTEMBER  18,1981 

PRICES  REALIZED 


Lot 


Realized 


Lot 


Realized 


Lot 


Realized 


Lot 


1 

2,400 

37 

6,250 

72 

9,500 

107 

2 

1.700 

38 

3,000 

73 

16,000 

108 

3 

4.200 

39 

4,500 

74 

10,500 

109 

4 

90.000 

40 

800 

75 

55,000 

110 

5 

18.000 

41 

1,500 

76 

28,000 

111 

6 

12.000 

42 

16,000 

77 

2,800 

112 

7 

14,000 

43 

15,000 

78 

800 

113 

8 

18.000 

44 

3.400 

79 

2,000 

114 

9 

12,500 

45 

1,650 

80 

6,000 

115 

10 

55.000 

46 

7,000 

81 

1,800 

116 

II 

4,200 

47 

1,300 

82 

1,200 

117 

12 

10,000 

48 

3,500 

83 

3,200 

118 

13 

10,000 

49 

75,000 

84 

480 

119 

14 

4.250 

50 

8,500 

85 

350 

120 

IS 

9,500 

51 

20,000 

86 

600 

121 

16 

36,000 

52a/b 

1  1  ,000 

87 

550 

122 

17 

3.000 

53a/b 

8,000 

88 

1,500 

123 

18 

1,050 

54 

2,500 

89 

300 

124 

19 

1,550 

55 

2,500 

90 

900 

125 

20 

850 

56 

15,000 

91 

1,400 

126 

21 

1,800 

57 

18,000 

92 

900 

127 

22 

1,500 

58 

18,000 

93 

1,250 

128 

24 

10,000 

59 

30,000 

94 

1.450 

129 

25 

5,000 

60 

39,000 

95 

3,000 

130 

26 

60,000 

61 

25.500 

96 

8,000 

131 

27 

8,500 

62 

15,500 

97 

1.250 

132 

28 

10.000 

63 

8,000 

98 

8,000 

133 

29 

30.000 

64 

4.000 

99 

22,000 

134 

30 

9,500 

65 

6,500 

100 

3,750 

135 

31 

1.100 

66 

23,000 

101 

1,450 

136 

32 

400 

67 

2.000 

102 

1,500 

137 

33 

12.000 

68 

23,000 

103 

725 

138 

34 

17,500 

69 

12,000 

104 

150 

139 

35a/b 

7.500 

70 

18,000 

105 

775 

140 

36 

3,500 

71 

3  1  ,000 

106 

1,900 

Realized 


1,450 

925 

1,000 

4.500 


3.750 

15,000 

3,150 

1,100 


7.000 
5.500 

5,250 

2.600 
4.600 


ILJU 


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[Sample  pages] 


MAIL   BID   SALE 
No.  16 


Closing    Date 
APRIL   19th.   1960 


GREEK   COINS 

from  the 

COLLECTION   OF  MR.  GEORGE  J.   BAUER 
ROCHESTER,  N.  Y.,  et  ol. 


BYZANTINE    COINS 

DUPLICATES    FROM    A    "WELL-KNOWN    COLLECTION." 

Roman  Medallion,  Renaissance  Medals,  etc. 

Balance   of   the   Collection   of   the   late 

DR.   KURT  M.   SEMON 
NEW  YORK  i  FRANKFURT  A.M.  i 


NUMISMATIC    FINE    ARTS 
EDWARD    CANS 

10   Rock   Lane,    Berkeley   8,   California 


238 


FOREWORD 

Mr.  George  J.  Bauer's  collection  of  Greek  Coins  is  probably  the  best 
known  in  this  country.  He  must  have  started  it  some  fifty  years  ago  when 
really  fine  material  was  still  available.  His  exquisite  taste  and  his  sense 
for  highest  quality  enabled  him  to  assemble  a  collection  which  ranks 
amongst  the  finest  ever  offered  for  sale.  Mr.  Bauer  shared  his  enthusiasm 
with  the  American  coin-collecting  fraternity  by  exhibiting  his  coins  at 
practically  every  important  Convention,  and  many  honors  were  heaped 
upon  him  on  such  occasions.  Influenced  by  the  late  Mr.  Edward  T.  Newell 
the  collection  is  particularly  strong  in  coins  from  Magna  Graecia.  and 
especially  Syracuse.  Greece  proper.  Alexander  the  Great  and  the  Diadochi. 
For  many  years  it  was  my  desire  to  offer  this  outstanding  material  at  an 
auction,  and  now  this  becomes  true! 

The  anonymity  of  the  consignor  of  the  Byzantine  Coins  has  to  be 
respected.  The  quality  and  rarity,  especially  in  the  coinage  of  the 
Isaurian  and  Macedonian  Dynasties,  speaks  for  its  importance. 

For  quite  a  number  of  years  I  was  liquidating  the  collection  of  my  old 
friend.  Dr.  Kurt  M.  Semon.  of  New  York,  formerly  of  Frankfurt  a.M.  After 
his  untimely  death  it  was  arranged  with  the  executor  to  offer  the  balance 
of  the  collection  in  an  auction  for  final  liquidation.  Even  these  few 
remaining  pieces  render  testimony  for  his  discriminating  taste  and  his 
sense  of  beauty.  His  greatest  love  was  the  Hadrian  Medallion  which 
remained  on  his  desk  until  he  closed  his  eyes  forever. 


239 


Terms    of    Sale 


The  purchase  price  plus  an  additional  charge  of  W'c  is  due  upon  receipt  of  our 

shipment. 

Postage  and  insurance  will  be  added  to  invoice;  for  shipments  within  California 
also  the  State  Sales  Tax  of  -1%. 

Each  coin  is  guaranteed  to  be  genuine,  and  as  described  in  this  catalogue,  but 
claims  of  any  nature  or  for  any  reason  must  be  made  within  15  days  from  the 
receipt  of  the  coins.  No  coins  are  returnable  except  by  agreement  with  this 
cataloguer. 

,Vo  Extra  Commission  will  be  charged  for  handling  your  bids,  but  unlimited 
bids  can  not  be  accepted. 

The  lots  will  be  awarded  to  the  highest  bidder.  If  his  bid  exceeds  the  next  high 
est  bid  by  more  than  10 %,  the  lot  will  be  awarded  at  a  price  based  on  the  next- 
highest  bid  plus  lO'/c.  This  enables  you  to  make  liberal  bids,  since  I  guarantee  to 
execute  them  beloui  your  figures  to  the  extent  stated  in  the  preceding  sentence. 

Estimates  are  for  guidance  only,  and  selling  prices  may  be  higher  or  lower. 

Bidders  unknown  to  this  cataloguer  are  requested  to  send  a  deposit  equal  to  25^ 
of  their  bids.  Such  deposits  will  promptly  be  refunded,  if  bids  are  not  successful. 

In  case  of  identical  bids,  preference  is  given  to  the  first  received. 

If  a  bidder  wants  to  limit  his  purchases  to  a  certain  amount,  he  may  indicate 
first  and  second  choice.  Such  bids  will  be  executed  with  care  and  as  the  situation 
warrants. 

A  list  of  prices  realized  will  be  sent  free  of  charge  to  all  successful  bidders. 
Other  parties  may  obtain  a  price  list  at  $1.00  per  copy  to  be  sent  with  the  order. 

Additional  information  will  be  furnished  upon  request. 

By  tending  in  a  bidsheet,  the  bidder  agrees  to  the  Terms  of  Sale  as  stated  above. 


All  coins  are  of  silver,  unless  otherwise  indicated. 

All  coins,  except  a  few  Byzantine  I  duplicates  or  minor  I .  are  illustrated. 


240 


GREEK    COINS 


1  W ESTER \  CELTS.  Aulerci  Eburoiices.  Gold.  Half  Stater.  Richly 

ornamented  head  I.  Rv.  Galloping  horse  r.:  above,  driver: 
below,  running  animal  snatching  at  horse  s  hoof.  DLT.7U18. 
3.44  gr.  E.F.  1 90.00 1 

2  —  Boii.  Gold.  Stater:  so-cailed  rainbow-cup.  Triquetrum  in  half- 

open  wreath.  Rv.  3  double-circles  and  4  encircled  pellets 
pyramidally  arranged  inside  zigzag  border.  DLT.9441.  F.399. 
Ex  .\aville  I  .73.  6.G4  gr.  E.F.  1 125.00 ) 

3  —  Carnutes.  Gold.  Stater.  Male  head  r.  Rv.  Biga  r.  Not  in  DLT. 

etc.  Ex  .\avtlle  I  .49.  7.39  gr.i  !  I.  V.F.  Very  rare  ( 100.00  I 

4  —  Carnules  I  ?  I.  Gold.  '4  stater.  Male  head  r.  Rv.  Biga  r. :  below. 

lyre   upside  down.   Cp.    for   rev.    DLT. 5950.   E.v   \aville   I  .48. 

1.89  gr.  E.F.  (TO.OOi 

5  —  Morini.  Gold.  Stater.  Obverse  blank.  Rv.   Disjointed  horse  r. : 

below,  pellet.  F.472.  6.32  gr.  E.F.  1 65.00 1 

6  —  \'errii.  Gold.  Stater.  Portions  of  a  laureate  head.  Rv.  Horse  r. : 

above,  wheel.  F.158.  £.v  \anlle  XI 1. 26.  6.00  gr.  E.F.  ( 100.00 1 

7  —  Parisii.  Gold.  Stater.  Male  head  with  large  curls  r.  Rv.  Horse  I.: 

above,   veil-like  pattern.    DLT.7782.   F.542.   £.v   \aviile   I  .62. 

7.31  gr.  V.F.  plus.  Very  rare  1 140.00 1 

8  -  Proto-Heketii    (?).    Gold.    Half   stater.    Head    of    Apollo    r. 

Rv.    Biga    r. :    in    ex..    inscription.    Cp.    Num.    Chron.    1945. 

pl.I.6.sq.  E.v  \arille  I  1.14.  J.0,°,  gr.i  !  i   E.F.  I'ery  rare  (80.00 1 

9  —  Remii.    Gold.    Globule-shaped    stater.    Oln.    Star.    Rv.    Blank. 

F.46S.  6.33  gr.  V.F.  (70.001 

10  EASTER\  CELTS.  Tetradrachm:  Philip  type.  Laur.  head  of 
Zeus  r.  Rv.  Horseman  I.:  behind,  wreath:  below,  branch. 
Cp.DLT.9770.  E.v  \arille  /'/./>.  13.11  gr.  Superb  (40.001 


241 


11  —  Audoleon.  Laur.  head  of  Zeus  r.  Rv.   Helmeted  horseman  r. 

Below    horse,    counterstamp.    Pink    402.    Cp. Jameson     1024. 

Ex  \aville  f>  .87.  13.23  gr.  Very  rare.  Superb  (100.00) 

12  —  Burgenlaender  group.  Diad.  head  of  Apollo  r.  Rv.  Horseman  1.; 

below,  fetters.  DLT.9901.  F.302.  Dess.104.  Pink  46(A  12,67  gr. 

Superb  (45.00) 

13  \lassalia.   (Marseille).  Before  350  B.C.   Drachm.  Female  head  r. 

Rv.    Mil  V    Lion    with    protruding    tongue,    walking    r.    Cp. 

Lucerne  1957,  No.  6.  3,74  gr.  E.F.  (60.00) 

14  Populonia.  Etruria.  4th  cent.  B.C.  Didrachm.  Head  of  Gorgon,  hair 

bound    with    diadem;    below,    value-mark:    X:X.    Rv.    Blank. 

Sambon  50.42.  3.5  gr.  Nearly  E.F.  (35.00) 

15  Rome.  269-242  B.C.  Didrachm.  Diademed  bust  of  young  Hercules 

with  club  over  shoulder.  Rv.  She-wolf  and  twins:   in  exergue, 
ROMANO.  R.R.C.  6.  Cp.  Lucerne  l'J54,  20.  7.18  gr.  E.F.  (75.00) 


16  —  222-205     B.C.     Didrachm     (Quadrigatusi.     Head     of    Janus. 

Rv.    Juppiter    with    Victory    in    quadriga:    below,    tablet    with 
incuse  letters:  ROMA.  R.R.C.  64a.  6.72  gr.  E.F. 

17  —  —  Aes  Grave:  "prow"  series.  The  complete  set  of  the  Libral 

Standard,  consisting  of: 

At  Janus-head   and   value-mark 

Ai  do.,  no   value-mark 

Semii  Head   of    Saturn 

Trieni  Head  of    Minerva 

Quadrant  Head   of    Hercules 

Sextant  Head   of    Mercury 

L'ncia  Head  of    Bellona 

Patina  varying,   from   medium  green   to  almost  black.   Set  of 
seven  pieces 


RRC.      i 

262.3 

ft- 

V.F. 

RRC. 

1 

j;».r 

cr. 

V.F. 

RRC. 

3 

128.4 

ft- 

V.F. 

RRC. 

r* 

Sv3 

ft. 

nearly 

V.F. 

RRC. 

$ 

640 

»«•• 

F. 

RRC. 

6 

37-> 

cr. 

V.F. 

RRC. 

7 

20.S5 

«'• 

nearly 

V.F. 

(25.00) 


( 300.00) 


242 


243 


List  of  Prices  Realized 


MAIL  BID  SALE  No.  16 

AprU  19th,  1960 
NUMISMATIC  FINE  ARTS 


EDWARD     CANS 

10  Rock  Lane 
Berkeley  8,  Calif. 


Lot  No.     Bid   !  Lot  No     Bid   :   Lot  No.     Bid      Lot  No.    Bid      Lot  No.    Bid 

Lot  No.    Bid 

1  |  70-00 

29    .|  35vO       65      |  6000 

98  ....|175.00 

129      |I37.50 

160      |  70.00 

2  155.00 

31  40.00 

70  325.00 

99  90.00 

130  121.00 

161  11000 

3  9500 

32  25.rO 

71  65.00 

100  2000 

131  65.00 

163    ...    75.00 

4  65.00 

33  (0.00 

72  8000 

101  ...      20.00 

132  385.00 

164  ...    6500 

5  55.0) 

34  46.00 

73  100.00      103  192.50 

134  8000 

165  ....  150.00 

6  80.rO 

35  35.00 

74  4500 

104        130.00 

135  125.00 

166  120.00 

7  16500 

36  40.00 

75    ...  155.00      105  150.00 

136  220.00 

167  100.00 

8  90.CO 

37  30.00 

76  ...  250.00 

106  ....     50.00 

137  ...  330.00 

168   ...    77.00 

9  70.00 

40  28.00 

77  100.00 

107  75.00 

138  125.00 

169  77.00 

10  3500 

41  55.00 

78  ...  375.00 

108  475.00 

141  70.00 

170  60.00 

11  70.00 

43  22.50 

79  250.00 

HO  360.00 

142  150.00 

171  85.00 

12  45.00 

44  35.CO 

81  6500 

111  190.00 

145  42500 

172  50.00 

13  50.00 

47  25.00 

82  8000 

112  30.00 

144        110.00 

173   ...    50.00 

14  35.00 

50  5000 

83  110.00 

113  190.00 

145  38500 

174  90.00 

15  70.00 

51     ..    70.00 

84  ....    35.00 

114    ..  160.00 

146  250.00 

175  105.00 

16  25.00 

J2  30.00 

85    ..  160.00 

115  55.00 

147  90.00 

176  105.00 

17  310.00 

53  27.50 

86  ....    80.00 

116  45.00 

148  70.00 

182  200.00 

18  60.00 

54  40.00  j    88  .      85.00 

117  150.00 

149  40.00 

183  150.00 

19  75.00 

55  40.00  |    89  65.00 

118  90.00 

150  170.00 

186  500.00 

20  46.00 

56  175.00 

90  60.00 

120  75.00 

151  185.00 

188  325.00 

21  66.00 

58  40.00 

91  40.00 

121  425.00 

152  610.00 

189  155.00 

24  6000 

59  60.00 

92  325.00 

124  ....  260.00 

153  750.00 

191  155.00 

26  75.00 

60  60.00 

93  15000 

125  160.00 

156  180.00 

195  250.00 

27  25.00 

61  27.50 

96     .    4500 

127  50.00 

157  85.00 

196  2500.00 

28  85.00 

63  65.CO 

97  30.00 

128  60.00 

159  110.00 

197  1900.UO 

244 


GLOSSARY  OF  TERMS  USED  IN  THE  EDWARD  CANS  ORAL  HISTORY 


Auction  —  a  sale  at  which  objects  are  offered  to  the  highest 
bidder,  either  by  mail  or  on  the  auction  floor. 

Aureus  —  a  Roman  gold  coin  worth  twenty-five  silver  denari. 

Cabinet  —  means  a  "collection;"  whatever  the  coin  is  kept  in  is 
called  a  "cabinet. " 

Classical  --  pertaining  to  ancient  Greek  and  Roman  eras,  and  a 

period  of  Greek  art  that  flourished  in  the  fifth  century 
EC. 

Dekadrachm  —  a  ten-drachma  silver  coin  of  the  ancient  Greeks. 

Denarius  --  the  standard  Roman  silver  coin--said  to  be  worth  ten 
bronze  asses  until  133  BC,  and  sixteen  asses  after  that. 
Nero  (54-68  AD)  lowered  its  silver  content,  as  did  his 
successors,  and  by  214  AD  it  was  only  40  percent  silver. 

Drachma  —  a  unit  of  weight;  a  term  having  to  do  with  the  amount 
of  silver  in  a  coin.   One  drachma  equals  six  obols. 

Exergue  --  the  area  of  a  coin  below  the  ground  line;  symbols  such 
as  single  letters  may  be  in  this  section. 

Hellenistic  —  a  term  for  Greek  culture  and  art  after  the  time  of 
Alexander  the  Great. 

Lot  —  the  term  given  to  a  coin,  or  group  of  coins  offered  for 

sale;  it  may  be  on  a  numbered  list  at  a  fixed  price,  and 
in  an  auction  catalog. 

Medallion  --  a  bronze,  silver,  or  gold  coin,  or  medal  issued  by 
a  Roman  emperor  to  commemorate  an  event;  it  may  be  worn 
around  the  neck  on  a  chain. 

Numismatics  —  the  study  of  coins. 

Numismatist  —  one  who  studies  coins  using  the  science  of 
numismatics . 

Obol  —  a  silver  Greek  coin  valued  at  one-sixth  of  a  drachma. 
Quadriga  —  a  representation  of  a  chariot  driven  by  four  horses. 

Roman  Empire  —  the  Roman  period  from  27  BC  until  the  empire 
ended  several  centuries  later. 


245 
GLOSSARY  (Continued) 

Roman  Republic  —  the  Roman  period  before  27  BC. 

• 

Solidus  —  a  gold  coin  of  the  later  Roman  Empire  originated  by 
Constantine — that  is  lighter  than  the  earlier  aureus. 

Stater   —  the  principal  weight  or  denomination  of  Greek  coinage, 
either  in  gold  or  silver. 

Unpublished  —  when  a  particular  classical  coin  does  not  appear 
in  any  of  the  reference  works  pertaining  to  a  part  of 
the  ancient  world,  it  is  said  to  be  "unpublished." 

Weight  standard  --  the  standardized  weight  unit  to  which  ancient 
cities  and  states  struck  their  coinage;  the  weight 
standard  often  varied  from  one  area  to  another. 


246 
INDEX  —  EDWARD  CANS 


American  Numismatic  Association,  71,93 

American  Numismatic  Society,  67,68,71,83,99,100,118 

Amyx,  Darrell,  80,  189 

Anastos,  Milton,  84,110 

Anderson  (in  English  Dept . ) ,  189 

Alsbergs,  the,  184 

antiquities,  passim 

Archeological  Institute  of  America,  68,69 

von  Aulock,  Hans,  90,91,111,112,154,157,158,171,188 

Azarpay,  Guitty,  148,165,168,182,192 


Baldwin,  Albert  (Baldwin  firm),  155,158,163,166,187,189,191 

Bauer,  George,  72,104 

Berlin,  Germany,  life  in,  2,13-15,20,22,28,140 

Berry,  Burton  Y.,  89,90 

Bieber,  Margareta,  83 

Bischoff,  Olga,  73 

Bliss,  Robert  Woods,  70,85 

Blumenstein  firm,  19,20,30 

Borage  (dir.  Milwaukee  museum),  157,160 

Borovsky,  Natasha,  50,134,135,137,176,177,185,186,190,197 

Brett,  Agnes  Baldwin,  81,83 

Brummer,  Joseph,  74,75,82 


Cahn,  Herbert  (Cahn  firm),  64,188,189 
Cansio,  Leopold,  91,92 
Caro,  Nikodem,  22 


Dales,  G.F.,  124 

Davis,  Norman,  118,119,172,191,192 

Depression,  46,61 

Deutsche  Landerbank,  21-23,192 

Dewing,  Arthur  S.,  69,86,87,94,95,171 

Dumbarton  Oaks  collection,  84,85,192 

Dykman  (attorney),  96-98 


Eisenberg,  Carol,  137,174,190,197 
Erxleben,  Frederich,  38,42 
Ettinghausen,  Richard,  83 


Faberge  (designer),  28 

Feith,  Hermann,  96 

Field  (collector  of  Mexican  seals),  168 

Frank,  Otto,  155,188 

Freund  (at  Dumbarton  Oaks  museum),  85 


247 


Cans,  Alfred,  2,13,15 

Cans,  Asya  Marshack,  36,47,55,58,62,64,72,82,87,90,97, 

101,127-130,132,129,153,156,193,196,200 

Cans,  Lydia,  59,101,130,141,147,156,174,178,179,180,181,196 
Cans,  Paula  Muller,  17,25-32,101,194,197 
Cans,  Robert,  2,27,25-35,51,54,59,101 
Gobi,  Robert  E.,  103,148 
Goethe,  Johann  Wolfgang  von,  150-152 
Greifenhagen,  Adolf  (dir.  Berliner  Museum),  43,44 
Grosse  (art  collector),  113,121 
Gutman,  Melvin,  75 


Hamburg,  Germany,  life  in,  1-11,26 

Hearst,  Phoebe,  126 

Hecht,  Herbert,  26 

Heimpel,  Wolfgang,  67,115,119,125,142-144,148,158,163, 

168,182,184,198 

Heinzer  (of  Thailand  museum),  115 
Heizer,  Sziggy,  167,168 
Hellman,  Julius,  20 
Heppner,  Max,  26-28 
Hersch,  Charles,  105 
Herzfeld,  Ernst,  82,183 
Heuss,  Theodore,  38 

Hirsch,  Jacob,  71-74,97,98,117,149,165,169-171,199 
Hitler,  Adolf,  23,125,160 
Horn,  Polly,  174,177-179,190,191,198,202 
Howe,  Ginny,  190 
Hunt,  Nelson  Bunker  and  William  Herbert,  145,146,171,188,189 

I.G.  Farbenindustrie,  23,44 

International  Association  of  Professional  Numismatists, 

81,102,105,164,165,170,171,188 
Israel,  56,57,104 


Jamieson,  Tom  and  Roslyn,  137,174,176 
Judd,  J.  Hewitt,  87-89,196,200,201 


Kampmann,  Michel,  164 

Kaplan,  Lucy  Shapiro,  135-140,174,176,190,193,197 

Kerr,  Alfred,  34 

Kilmer,  Ann,  67,158,166 

Kisch,  Guido,  83 

Knight,  Max,  133,161,162 

Kolley,  Jane,  165 

Kolonial  Bank,  20,21,44 

von  Korner,  Oscar,  21,22 

Kossof,  Abe,  164 

Kovacs,  Frank,  187,188 


248 


Kougal ,  Max,  114 
Kreisler,  Fritz,  36 
Kreutzer,  Leonid,  129 
Kruger,  Kurt,  44,45,56 


Lande,  Irene,  143 

Lederer,  Philipp,  32,33,41,51,58,65,69,146 

Lehmann-Hartleben,  Karl,  79,80 

Lieberman,  Alexander  and  Steffa,  129,130,159 

L.L.  Hamburger  firm,  64 

Lowenthal  (sculptor),  101 


Mabbott,  Thomas  Oliver,  72 

McCormack,  Fowler,  199 

McNall,  Bruce,  145,146,165 

Mainzer,  Ferdinand,  34,38-42 

Martin,  F.R.,  53 

Mautner,  Felix,  184,185 

Mendelsohn,  Eric,  209 

Metal,  Julio,  62-67,69 

Michaelovitch,  George,  48 

Micco,  Guy  (Gans's  physician),  172 

Miller  (excavator),  189 

Mockel,  Otto,  45 

Monckeberg,  Franz,  9,10 

Moore,  Gregory  G.  Cans,  101 

Morgenroth,  Sigmund,  146-149 

Morley,  Charles,  147 

Muller,  Waldemar,  60 

museums,  192 

music,  5-10,39,40,45,56,125 


Na  Chi-Liang,  114,121,161,162,167 

Nash,  Ernest  and  Irene,  54,106,153,154 

Newell,  Edward  T. ,  68-72,99 

Neumier,  Alfred,  196 

Niemeyer,  Magnus,  5-7 

Numismatic  Fine  Arts,  47,48,63-68,76-78,101,  109,110,119, 

120,124,131,145,146,188 
numismatics,  106, 107 , passim 
Nussbaum,  David,  64,65,67,81 
Nussbaum,  Hans,  65 


O.K.  Rosenberg  and  Company,  13-15 


Pappas,  Louis,  143,167 

Petri,  Egon,  129 

Porada,  Edith,  111,112,145,157,166,171,188 

Pottner,  Erail,31 


249 


Pritchett,  Kendrick,  69 
Provost,  Julie,  175,197 


Richmond,  Kenneth,  96,97,99 
Richter,  Gisela,  33-52,83,153 
Roosevelt,  Franklin,  D.,  66 
Rosenberg,  Oscar,  13 


Salmony,  Alfred,  82 

Santa  Maria  brothers,  153 

Schocken,  Salman  and  Herman,  117-119,206-210 

Schoenlicht,  Alfred,  95-96 

Schmitz,  Geheimrat,  32 

Schroeder,  Arthur  and  Norma,  198 

Schroeder,  Steven,  61 

scrapbooks,  193-195 

Sexton  (dentist),  62 

Simon,  Israel  and  Company,  3,8-11 

Sintensis,  Rene,  31 

Sloan,  Michael,  173,174,180 

Sluga,  Hans,  184,185 

Spink's,  187,191 

Starr  (dir.  Milwaukee  museum),  160,161 

Stavenhagen  (art  collector),  168 

Stronach,  David,  142,168 

Stress,  Fred  and  Helen,  122, 128, 130, 1A2, 168, 198 


Ternbach,  Josef,  52,75 

Thatcher  (dir.  Dumbarton  Oaks  museum),  85 
Theorell,  Hugo  and  Margit,  127,128 
Thompson,  Homer  and  Dorothy,  83 
Tikotin,  Felix,  113,121,159,160 


Vatican  collection,  105 

Velay,  Maxime,  70,71,175 

Victorius,  Annie,  128 

Vogelsang  (Hamburg  exporter),  10,11 


Wagner,  Cosima,  36 

Wahnschaff,  Theodor,  2 

Walden,  Herwarth,  31 

Warburg,  Max,  47,57 

Whittemore,  Thomas  (head  of  numismatic  div.  Dumbarton 

Oaks  museum) ,  85 
World  War  I,  17-19,29,30 
Wormser  (of  New  Netherlands  Coin  Co.).  65 


Xenia,  Princess,  97,98,103 


250 


Zahn,  Robert,  40-43 
Zara,  Louis,  100 


Ora  Huth 

Graduated  from  the  University  of  California,  Berkeley, 
in  1943  with  an  A.B.  degree,  and  in  1947  with  an  M.A. 
degree  in  fine  arts.   From  1943-1945  served  in  the  U.S. 
Marine  Corps  at  Arlington,  Virginia.   Taught  art  in  the 
Vallejo  Unified  School  District,  1947-1956. 

Postgraduate  Researcher,  Assistant  Specialist,  and 
Research  Associate  and  author  specializing  in  governance 
of  the  San  Francisco  Bay  Area  and  the  California  coast 
line  for  the  Institute  of  Governmental  Studies,  University 
of  California,  Berkeley,  1968-1985.   Research  Associate, 
ABT  Associates,  Inc.,  Cambridge,  Massachusetts,  to  study 
the  San  Francisco  Redevelopment  Agency  for  U.S.  Department 
of  Housing  and  Urban  Development  (HUD),  1978-1979.   Legal 
research  for  Oakland  family  law  attorney,  1975-1984. 

From  1956  to  date  active  in  community  affairs  as  member  and 
past  chairperson,  City  of  Berkeley  Waterfront  Commission; 
as  president  of  the  League  of  Women  Voters  of  Berkeley: 
and  as  director,  officer,  and  chairperson  of  studies  of 
regional  government,  land  use,  and  general  program  planning 
for  the  Leagues  of  Women  Voters  of  California,  of  the 
Bay  Area,  and  of  Berkeley. 

Employed,  1983,  as  interviewer  on  numismatics,  soil  chemistry, 
and  medical  care  topics  for  the  Regional  Oral  History 
Office. 


19   7074